Socialists and the fetish of welfare states.

Lenin cat why don't you just move to one of the Anarchist communities out there, Denmark has a pretty big one.

People, especially those damnable reds, have an irrational love for the working class.

The only real ideologue here is LeninCat. Everyone else is tempering their opinions with reason and an understanding of material reality.

Well why not love the working class, Love all classes and then exploit them for gain.

You people and your political ideologies.

Now what just a cotton picking minute, I'm going to revisit this. What first world country is using violence to make people pay taxes? This is America not 15th century Nottingham and much to your dismay you are not Robin Hood. Now in the likely case that you suggesting a fine or jail time is coercion, this would make all laws unenforceable, meaning all laws would go unpunished. Your playing with extremes here.

Well violence can mean other things then just physically hurting someone, for example forcibly taking someone away against his/her will and locking him/her up. Which happens in cases of tax evasion. Look in essence taxes are a similar proces to things like protection money rings, if you dont pay you face the consequences, also the practicallity of the issue has little to do with its intristic characteristics.

Ans it was this day: December twelfth two thousand and eleven that that heavens reveled themselves to I MayorEmanuel came to abrupt realization that jail=coercion. Now where do we go from with our new found knowledge do you ask? Well punishment for all crimes is coercion so therefore we cannot punish.

No, if you violate the law you face consequences, unless you are going to argue something along the lines that taxation is theft that I feel we're done here. Although I felt the first part was unclear so I might be way off.

This one was a bit of a head scratcher. Are you arguing that I can come up with any system I want no matter how impractical and as long as I agree with it morally it's fine. Or are you acknowledging that your system is impractical but you like it so your going to argue for it.

I've been mind-fucked to oblivion by the ideological talk going on here.

Yeah, no wonder people go nuts over it.

The other problem with LeninCat's views is that not everyone who works has a production oriented job. There are waiters, mailmen, firefighters. etc. They produce nothing so how should they be payed?

By you're statements I'll assume that you are anti-taxes. Taxes are an important part of any state: even communists expect there to be a global market and thus a global economy. For any kind of governmental system to run in a market driven economy, it needs money. Thus, it taxes. Taxes, though I can say I'm not in the best mood when paying them, are an important part of keeping a society running in a manner that provides a good standard of living for its citizens. I'd suggest you learn a little about economics before you spout off about taxes.

- I did not say that we cannot punish, I say that punishment generally involves violence, retaliatory or not, to punish a person for whatever this person did that is considered a crime.

- Also please note that I am simply observing the nature of taxation, I am not bringing out any value judgement on it, which is what this entire discussion is revolving around and something that you dont recognize, I am simply observing something, I dont pass out a judgement nor do I bring up how this observation is supposed to be applied in the real world.

a) I am an anarchist so talking with me about a state is kinda silly.

b) Read my reaction towards mayoremmanuel about me simply observing and not passing a judgement.

c) Communists expect a global market?

d) You did touch on to something there when you said that we need to violently coerce people into paying if we want people to actually have a generally good standard of living, which I think is a symptom of the structural weakness in our system.

You have to have moral consistency, if we can't coerce people we can't involuntarily jail people-if they chose to go to jail through their own free will it would be fine-if I were to follow your line of thinking.

You are obviously passing judgement, you described taxes as "coercive". Now I know enough about anarchism to figure out that the goal of anarchists is to get rid of coercion ergo getting rid of taxes. Most people when observing something do not interject their own opinions into it. You could say "there are consequences to refusing to pay taxes", an observationally true statement.

If they understand anything about economics, they will. Communists expect the rise of the worker. A worker is a social position which creates products that will be bought, and thus then should expect a global market.

Yes, you have that correctly if people want to go to jail by their own free will then that is a voluntary act that is non-coercive, dont know what the relevance of that is, well except if you are inquiring about my belief system, which I dont think is really relevant, well to me at least.

Yeah well I did just only use the word coerce in my last post and that was aimed at Trotsky, which was once in the entire discussion. So I might have misused a word that has too much value judgement added to it for me to use in this context, I apologise for it. As a peace token I offer you my earlier statement, "Look in essence taxes are a similar proces to things like protection money rings, if you dont pay you face the consequences".

I meant a market as in a market economy, not as in a global economy.

I don't think these jobs exist in Lenin Cat's world. At least, that's the vibe I get from him.

So FOREVER TILL YOU DIE OR REACH RETIREMENT you can not work?

Makes it easier to expand

and therefor are oppressed.

Nah, most of them have enough assets in stock to not do anything forever.

You dont need a leader.

If capitalist democracy is so great France can beat Germany!

No, people are not naturally greedy, there very little of anything naturally.

Ask someone to teach them.

@coexistence and pottman http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/g/o.htm Go to "goods and services".

So many ideological debates right here.

Actually both of you are correct to a certain extent. However, there is a disconnect between what greed actually is and you guys think greed is. Observe:

People in fact are naturally greedy, in that they are naturally inclined to not only secure economic security for today, but also for the next day and the day after that and indeed until the end of their existence. Should this involve an unequal distribution of wealth consumption, and thus, the disenfranchisement of some or even the majority, is simply the byproduct of scarcity.

I think the only one who's got practical altruism on their mind here is Demon. Stop glorifying labor. Stop celebrating the working class. If you want a better society, get automation to do the work for us, don't strike and put a halt to production. Class warfare is a great thing if it's aimed at the bottom. Destroy that odious underclass once and for all.