Fidel Castro: Tyrant or Hero?

Please give some reasons.

He is a tyrant and doesn't have elections and no free speech and kills people. (These will all be presented in his argument against Castro)

Probably. I am no expert on Castro, but he is still alive and not everyone in the 'Free World' hates him [if I am correct, it is just the US with the sanctions] so he must have done SOMETHING right.

It's just the U.S, the Cuban aristocrats under Batista, and the occasional Cuban who suffered under the Castro regime. But all in all the majority of the west can deal with him especially nations like Canada who have a wonderful relationship with Cuba.

Perhaps the dumbest thing i have ever heard was the following....Cuba was better under Batista (Heard this today in A.P world and i burst out laughing)

Don't I know it. I know a teacher from the US who lived in Cuba under the regime. When she asked her student [technically she was substituting since the teacher was out] "... and Cuba is under a..." and the class answered "Communist!". She said "No, a dictator."
I sympathize with the Cubans, but not the US or the aristocrates under Batista.

Proof that the US isn't the only one that is right sometimes. And that sanctions are not a full-proof method to do... anything. I can say that I believe that the rest of the world's policy of open exchange with Cuba is more progressive towards making Cuba pro-West than all of the ridiculous sanctions imposed on North Korea. Even though the successors in both countries [Raul and Un, respectively] are said to be more pro-West than their predesessors, I can all but guarentee that Cuba will be more pro-West than North Korea [or Korea, as it is to be hoped that the opening up of the nation will allow for a glorious reunion of the people, if not the goverments].

While, yes, I died a little inside when I read that, he IS entitled to his opinion... parhaps he was a decendent of one of the aristocrates or related to the power structure there somehow. I remember that a AP World History teacher from the US that I know said that one of his former students said that he was related to Chavez or some South American leader.

Overall, for better or worse, Cuba is marginally better off than most of the other nations that the US dealt with in the Cold War. Ironically, it is the nation that hated the US.

Castro has introduced private practice and business back into Cuba in order to deal with the lose of there long time ally the Soviet union, who really Castro never actually started out as Communist but just a revolutionary against a horrible united states backed regime he only declared the revolution socialist in order to get Soviet support. I would claim it is more or less Entrepreneurial Socialism.

I sympathize only in the fact that Castro has not giving his people more freedoms but in the end if you measure Castro's successes best on education, health, and the development of living he has increased this by far to some of the highest points anywhere in the world. Since Cuba is also a third world country you have to compare it with them and Cuba far surpasses. One could see without the embargo that Cuba would be a developing country by today, but instead the united states is so cut clear on profit making and returning business to the island it will not let up on it (meanwhile giving most Favorited nation status to a worse regime: The PRC)

Sanctions do nothing to decrease the power of the people and only lead to the death of countless civilians who now can't get any foreign aid and thus it gives more authority and power to the oppressive government. A perfect example is north Korea.

Indeed they are, infact Cuba has been more willing to deal with the united states because of Canada. Its time these dumb sanctions end and the iron curtain on Cuba fall.

Cuba will copy the Chinese model and become more and more like China today, with Fidel Castro becoming a Mao only his image really remembered but most of his ideas or nationalization of the country forgot by the elite North Korea is a different subject in it's entirety and although it will become more pro-west under Un and perhaps the unification with South Korea will happen someday....it won't be someday soon.

As are all people entitled to there opinion be it good or bad, to deny someone this is to deny someone there basic rights. Something the Castro regime has done, which shames me greatly.

Cause they truly experienced what the united states can do to you for a long time, although most Cubans i talk to in Cuba want more relations with the USA and where very disappointed that Obama didn't remove the sanctions on the country.

I would not call the PRC the worst regime, but I would not call it the best. The PRC is making 'progress'.
As for your theory about exchange - either that is a massive exaggeration, or just plain wrong. There is no way that trading with Cuba could ever replace the value of goods or just plain value of trading with China.
In practical terms, the trade with China is far more affective than with Cuba. Cuba could never match China's output with reasonable prices. Even if China desided to eliminate the trade imbalence, the sheer impact of the labor cost in Cuba, especially so close to the US, would drive prices ridiculouly high.
In ethical terms, you are trying to balence the fate of a handful of million of people against the fates of billions in China. If I had to make the choice [my bias aside] I would trade with China, even if I had to burden the shame and guilt of the possible deaths of the Cubans. Ultimately, the prosperity of the massive number of Chinese people would be greater than that of the Cubans alone. It is wrong and cruel to reduce it to a matter of numbers, but it is true nontheless. Is a Cuban life any more precious than a Chinese one? Or vise versa? I think not.

That is what I said...

I doubt that Cuba will ever copy China's model. They can't. They won't.
They cannot for the reason [among others] that the culture is not that way. China, no matter what you think of it, is not so astranged to strong central governments. It is true that Cuba is somewhat used to this, but it is also true that it is familiar with the opposite.
They won't because the sheer amount of US influence would probably prevent it. The people will probably seek a medium between what is and what the US has. With the new regime reportedly more pro-West, we could see this emerge.
I dearly hope that you are wrong about the Korean penninsula. It may not be so visable from where you stand, but the next few years will be the desiding factor. The old regime is dying off and the new regime is more pro-West. It is really a now-or-never. The regime is dying off and the people who really want a reunification [the older population who still have strong family ties across the border] are dying off. Without them, the reunion will be tense and almost impossible.
The same is kind of with China and Taiwan. The guard is changing and the reunion there will be desided in the next 2-3 decades.

As have others. In the next few decades, we will see the unraveling of the regimes that the US supported only because they opposed Communism. After that, people will look back clearly, and see that the US set it up themselves, then came in and acted the heros.
I too was disappointed that Obama did not lift the sanctions, particularly after the speculations that Castro had died. I hoped that it would bring the issue center-stage, but it did not.

Why would labour cost in Cuba be so high? Wages are pretty low in Cuba.

That's debatable, However with the current economy of china being so depended on the united states and because the Chinese economy is also slowing down by margins far bigger and longer then expected it will be interesting to see what the Chinese government can do at home. They also have alot of social unrest and problems, such as blocking of many internet sites and being a "authoritarianism" state, although the biggest times of change for China was during the Beijing Olympics when they allowed alot more freedoms then ever before. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues, or if China will repeat its empire history and collapse epicly. There is also the issue of the rise of unions in china as well as workers rights and Infancide in the country.

But the entire Is China awesome or bad deal is better left discussed between you and Kali.

Either you don't read what I said or you totally misunderstood. Cuba can never and will never replace China as a trading partner of its magnatiude (only Japan can) however Cuba will be copying and looking at the Chinese economic model for guidance in a way to develop the economy, its not just Cuba who is doing this but alot of Africa and Asia. Right now the Chinese economic growth is the envy of many poor nations.

As china will remain so, Though the united states will attempt to get its self off the tit of china and balance its reliance on more countries. This will hurt the Chinese economy however even still Cuba will never become a more important trading partner then the united states. Japan and maybe Brazil or India will but never Cuba.

See Above, Cuba is copying the Chinese model just to a much smaller scale.

By that notion we should make India are biggest trade partner because of the geopolitical instability in the region as well as there huge population growth which is expected to overpass China's population soon.

As would I, the Chinese would make me more of a profit then the Cubans and profit is everything. Although I would have a much harsher stance on the Chinese government.

*Ugg can't believe i just said i'll do something for my own profit, I sound like a capitalist.

No life is better or more precious then another, then again if my family was Cuban i would be more worried about what happen to them in Cuba then a billion Chinese people I'll never meet.

That is what I said...

Not on a grand scale, but a much more micro scale. Chinese economy=Envy, people are natural in trying to use it as a means to grow there own.

Same could be said for Russia.

It's not just the regime of north Korea that is more pro-west but the people who are the 3rd generation people of North Korea and have been exposed to way more pro-western ideas then ever before. Once the current 2nd generation dies off or loses political power you will see a more negotiable North Korea. Perhaps one day a Unification between the two Korea.

If not a complete reunification more trade and dealing with South Korea, although Unifaction is far from impossible.

I remain skeptical of this, please enlighten me on how this is going to happen.

I thought it will be lifted because the Cold war is over and the embargo has failed in getting its job done.
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa.html

that and shut-up you little smartass. He gives of more bullshit then you think
can have you ever disagreed with a teacher and punished working in sugar cane feilds like a slave?
well have! not only that he stole cuba's identity we use to be a very influential power {trust me batista
didn't take shit from anyone even the president} with a solid revoltuiion {jose Martin} and a fight against the many opressed
blacks who worked under the spanish Governante. Now we are ALL in the feilds in the name of the "state".
He tricked us and then sold us to the commies just so he could save himself from america. He is not
a leader he is a slaver and a coward. I don't give damn about what ideology and it's theories he failed us that's
what matters not "progress" and not chuck excuses like a kindergarten when he didn't turn in Homework.

Castro did not slave anyone. And how could he be a coward, he fought in a revolution starting with only 22 men.

You sir, don't have any respect.

This is why I hate fucking Miami Cubans there all brainwashed fucking Batistan aristocrats with no background in there own country history or what Batista or Castro did and only listen there bullshit mothers or father who sucked the dick of the mafia while they where in Cuba meanwhile the regime went around obsession women and blacks and you could easily see policemen taking bribes from mafia members or being asked not to go after crimes unworthy of Batista attention, Miami sickens me and I Pray every night that Miami

And no I restrain myself from continuing on before I say things that will get me banned without a doubt.

I asked that you at least do some background on the subject starting with Life in Cuba from about a year before or right after the America-Spanish war up until today, and if you still think Batista is a great leader after that i seriously pitty you.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/batista.htm

Until then we have Nothing to discuss for the reminder of our pitiful little lifes. DEATH TO BATISTA.

75. You saw Turkey's red flag and thought that it was China.
I don't deny that they have corruption problems [nor do they for that matter, as I said before, they are in the process of purging] but I would assert 2 things about the ranking:
1. Corruption is reletive. I cannot whole-heartedly trust this source without knowing EXACTLY how it was calculated.
2. It is a Western source.
3. With greater population comes greater corruption. It is very difficult to ignore the ratio argument, though it can be misleading because we don't all share the exact same other variables.

Yes, but with the influence of the US and the demand of positive rights...
Not to mention that the labor would be significantly less than in China, which would drive up the demand, which gives them [the workers] more power to demand greater wages which equal greater cost of the end products...

1. The Chinese government [along with everyone else] is very concerned about the economy.
2. Blocking internet sites being a problem WITHIN the country is debatable. One thing that I always try to tell Kali: not everyone sees things the same way the US or the West does. From what I have seen, it is not that big of a problem WITHIN the country. The majority of the complaints are filed by Western-backed Chinese groups [which makes regular Chinese weary of them and so stay away just as much as fear of the government]
3. Being an "authoritarian" state a problem is a point of view. As I pointed out before, strong central governments are hallmarks of Chinese society. I'm not saying that they would not want to change, just that what is is the norm and has been for so long that entire swaths of the culture is BASED around how the government is expected to work. The idea of changing the Chinese governing form is a much more momentous job than alot of Westerners really realize.
4. Workers' rights? Like which ones? The Chinese workers are now recieving benefits from some companies since the labor supply is actually having trouble keeping up with the demands and the workers can now get picky about their workplaces.
5. Infancide. I'll tell you what I have told everyone else: They don't like it, but they can't afford to get rid of it. For the most part, the Chinese people understand and accept the necessity. It doesn't mean that they like it. The government doesn't like it, but they realize that it is necessary. If there was a developed country willing to trade vast quantities of food to get rid of it [looking at you America, with all of your substities for agriculture NOT to farm] the Chinese would probably jump at the chance to get rid of the OCP. The people would probably gladly get rid of it and the government along with if it refuse to take a good deal.

@ the trade with Japan/India/Brazil theory:
Probably not because:
1. Japan: the US tried that before and guess what? The Japanese had the same economic strategy THEN as the Chinese do NOW. The US exerted its imperialistic pressure on Japan and forced it to raise the value of its currency, which collapsed the Japanese economy. Now they are stuck with a currency with a value too far above the US dollar. That is hurting their economy. They can buy stuff easily, but they cannot sell them as easily. Now the US is trying to do the same thing to China. What they don't understand is that they don't have a massive base in China to force the Chinese to do ANYTHING.
2. India: India, India. So many problems. For one, there are massive ethnic and religious tensions in the country. For another, their economy is no more reliable or honest than the Chinese. That, and they are getting closer and closer to war with Pakistan, which would undermine the US relations in the region. That, and it would anger China.
3. Brazil: Political problems. And China has a MUCH larger influence in the country. You know all of that land that is being cleared of rainforest to plant stuff? You know what they are planting? Or where it is going? Its soybeans. To sell to China by the shipload. To feed the Chinese. And Brazil and the US are not on the best of terms.
Overall, China is actually a good choice economically for the US to trade with. In spite of all the tensions and political problems, the Chinese economy remains more reliable, stable, and predicatable than the ones that you suggested. Or they remain outside the over-riding influence of others. Or they are not in danger of the anger of one of their neighbors for stealing trade. Or they are not stuck with a cursed currency.
Of course there are MANY other factors that I have not taken into account, but overall, I stick with my conclusion. And hey, I could write libraries on this, couldn't I?

I don't know what you believe [please include in response as best you can], but don't feel too bad. Just because I believe in Communism does not make me bad for knowing and understanding other ideologies. In fact, it is the contrary. It improves me. The same can go for you.

You understand it, you just have not applied it to the Chinese-Taiwanese conflict:

Just replace the names. The idea is essentially the same.

Well While trying to reply to your previews Post, my computer had the wonderful idea to shut down before I hit publish and thus i lost all my information and anything I was going to say (Pretty much See Kali vs Imperial in any China debate)

Anyways on to this First of all you mentioned above that the Chinese state would stop its infancide if the United states was more willing to trade agricultural with it, the reason for this is geopolitical. If one looks at the history of China they have had a serious issue with famines and feeding the people, this will only set to increase with the passing years and the united states will use this agricultural advantage over the Chinese state, who will most likely seek southern Siberia for agricultural means which there already are millions upon millions of illegal chinese citizens in Russian Siberia. Next in terms of Economic growth one must always remember the fact that china is based off the wants of the west to buy cheap Chinese goods and wal-mart. When America catches a cold China catches ammonia. also which under recent reports is not doing as well as expect and infact slowing down considerable, however there Per Capita income is still far lower then the United States or Japans even in the best regions of China this is the same case, and in the poor regions of China with about a billion people working for roughly 3 dollars a day in sub-Africa poverty and conditions, Increasing Per Capita income will be extremely difficult. More then 1/2 of the Chinese population still lives in villages and it is expected to take 3-5 decades in order for 25% of the Chinese rural population to become Urbanized in the slightest. There exports (according to the Chinese government so its Propley worse) of 1.7% and that is just awful. They have lost there investment standered by the rest of the world, who are now shifting focus into Mexico or Brazil. They have the same inflation problem as Japan did in the 1990s (Repeat). China greatest economic weakness is that its a deport economy, which go through the global sea network of trade which is solo maintenance and blocked by the U.S Navy which has left Beijing uncomfortable about this (Until China has a navy to combat the United states Navy and to make sure the USN can't block Chinese ports at will, then China can never beat USA) Next The Chinese state is Protected as well as Isolated, To the North you have the Gobi desert, to the west you have the Tibetan highlands/Himalayan region which have huge amounts of Social unrest (You know my Position with Tibet freedom already) . To the South you have Jungles. While there is gates into China (like the Silk Road) the largest and most important is the Manchuria gate which the mongols and Japanese invaded from. With this you get the heartland of China that is being buttfucked by the previous factors as well as unrest from China many Ethnic nationalities. Next China is surrounded by Neighbors such as ( Japan, Russia, India, Pakistan, South Korea, Indonesia, Vietnam, and even Taiwan and if you really think about it the United states) Its cause of these reasons the Chinese economy will not become a Superpower, because the united states has and always have more room then China. With all these factors and the repeat of a Japan of 1990s in China we will see Japan get forcefully brought up by the united states. (And this will flip and flop between China and Japan every 20-30 years or so) and Japan has a far better Navy then China and is more pro-west then most others, and a unified Korea would also add more questions to the equations.

So pretty much When China falls Japan rises and when Japan falls China rises. But in the end China will be an interesting country to watch in the upcoming years (Along with Russia and Turkey)

Yeah even im doubtful that the Indians will ever become a good trade partner.

Brazil without a doubt rise in Economic trade with both the United States and China. (Watch Video)

Based on your observation what do you think I am?

Im more wondering how the Taiwan people will do this, more or less the government. Its going to be more of Taiwan fault for Chinese/Taiwanese unification.

True and not true at the same time. The US is in a sticky position. If it opens up the trade, it partly takes responsibility to what happens to the Chinese people. If it trys to pressure the Chinese government by closing the trade, not only will the Chinese hate the US [government and people, both] so will the international community look down upon it for doing the trade and allowing the Chinese to rid themselves of the OCP [which everyone hates] and prosper and suddenly closing it down, causing massive starvation. On the flip side, it will increase relations and passive US/Western influence in the China.

Yes and no.
Siberia certainly looks good, but it has complications.
1. It would sour Russo-Sino relations, which, no matter what anybody says, are not as solid as it is thought.
2. The region is undeveloped. Even industries such as agriculture require a certain amount of sophitication to make enough product these days.
3. Expanding that far makes others nervous and China can't actually project its power or influence well.

I honestly don't understand where you are going with this information. I already know all of this.

This is an unfair comparison for many reasons:
1. China has over 5 times the population of the US and many times the population of Japan. When the Per Capita is calculated, they take the overall and devide [among other things]. Basic math [third grade in the US, I believe]. Obviously China, with a lower overall GDP than the US and a FAR larger population would have a lower Per Capita.
2. It is kind of hard when everyone is constantly trying to thwart your growth out of 'fear'.
3. China, unlike both the US and Japan, is focused mainly in low-skill labor.
4. How often do you hear of starvation on mass scales in China? In spite of the Per Capita. Standards of living. It is hard to compare two of the top [indeed THE TOP] nations in standards of living to a developing nation.

I have no idea what you are saying here. Literally. Please rewrite and resubmit the sentence. I am interested in what [I think] you are trying to say.

For Mexico, I have not heard of that yet.
For Brazil, please reread my above post on Brazil and who is investing there the most.

As I stated before. Though it is more a state-manufactured thing [as Kali is so fond of pointing out]. And I said what the US is trying to do.

I'll be perfectly honest with you. I think that this was just a blatant rant. We have already covered the war angle before. Nothing [besides the US shifting to the Pacific] has really changed. Going over the details is pointless.
Thank you. I am well familiar with China's terrain. Probably moreso than you are. I know perfectly well the limitations that they pose. From an economic point, they are not as big a complication or negative as you place them. From a military standpoint, they are limiting, but not important as they will help defend and China probably will not leave the country.
What in the world is this about the Silk Road? Why is that relevent?
What about the invasions of Mongolians and Japan? Talking about them is pointless. As pointed out numerous times in the MUN (remake) thread, the Mongolians no longer pose a threat [indeed, they are members of the SCO] and if Japanese soldiers set one foot on China, the PRC will cry for joy and thouroughly enjoy the casus belli for crushing Japan and grounding it to dust. Or just Nuking them. The US would have nothing to say, since the PRC was the one attacked.

Again, I do not understand why you have gone off on a military tangant. And again, I am well aware of China's neighbors and the long history that they share and how they interact [or don't]. What is your point? Why have you taken the discussion pointlessly into this direction that serves no purpose?

Then why is that word the one on the lips of every polical leader outside of China? China doesn't say that China will be a superpower, others do. Why do military analysts worry about China's growing power if they will not become a superpower? Why is everybody so damn interested?

I'd need to see this theory thouroghly explained and backed by experts to believe it. One thing about what is happening in the world these days: it is nigh on unpredictable. Democracy. Communism. A world-spanning economic structure. The US. I could sit here and list for years on end the differences between the old world and the new one. So many factors have changed that predicting what will happen based on what has happened before is... impossible. The trends themselves have been broken.

I don't doubt them, I just... don't know enough to really make even an educated guess. All I did was point out problems that they have. I need more time and more information to guess where they are going. I can't even say for certain what will happen in the Sino-Indian border issue right now.

And guess who got there first? This guy.
But seriously, China already has a powerful foothold in the Brazillian economy. And Brazil is none too happy about being under the US shadow. China doesn't really care whether you are under their shadow or not as long as they get what they want. You just mutually benefit.

Other than a group which Kali hates?
Communist or a branch thereof, but with modifications and moderation.

Will it be Democratic like the US is? Probably not. But Democracy will play an improtant role.
The Taiwanese can sell the idea to the mainland Chinese if they stop being so aggressive against reunification and stop bedding with foreigners, which makes the PRC government angry and the people weary.

he was OUR leader and how is it fair that at 7 years old a child has to help cut tree's and do
a grown man's job and at the same time have his milk stamps taken from him? that's enslavement and
a coward because instead of allowing us to keep our buisness he says "nope" its dangerous cause they could do
buisness on the outside. so he takes all their stuff and has anyone who resists or protest shot! HE IS NOT A TRUE LEADER!

In the end of the day, the Chinese and u.s government are fully aware of the reliance that the Chinese economy depends on the consumer in America, as well the agricultural factor the u.s likes to hold over the Chinese heads, in the end the Chinese will side with Washington only because of the intense projection of power the Americans have in the pacific, which like what the Mediterranean sea was for the Romans, the pacific has become for the Americans and they have made sure that there naval input keeps the Chinese in check. If there is something the united states has proven its self time and time again its not afraid to keep the pacific in its current status quo and if china or japan gets in its way it will do whatever it takes.

The western media likes to play the Chinese and Russians as all buddy buddy (if you count by BRIC or SCO then yes) however the Russians and the Chinese have a history of splinting before. as well as they can't even get a gas deal signed at the moment, which if Chinese economy and infrastructural needs is going to increase its going to be alot more reliant on the Russians.

It will be interesting if Beijing takes a Pro-Moscow approach or a Pro-Washington. My people claim it will be Pro-Washington.

While this is true, the region can be developed in a quick amount of time and when combined with the rich amount of resources that Siberia has, it will be no wonder if China takes more interest to the region. Propley one of the best proposed and interesting (although unrealistic) future war is between Russia and China over the Siberian region.

The best China can do is sent more of its people to live in the region, although your right the Chinese can not project there power well at all (another factor going against a future Chinese superpower status)

Fucking bullshit, you should be a nationalist and deny any evidence you see in front of you. Yeah just glad you are aware of this.

If one was to use the best regions of China it would still be far behind the Japanese or Americans, and the country in and of its self is reflected by the whole of the people which is something the huge population of China is keeping down. Alot of tension is and will continue to spark between the ethnicity of china as well as the fear of another great famine. China's large population can be made into quite a workers strength, but only for the short run as the workers strikes against the country begin to take place, on the other hand Japan's decreasing population is its weakness (as well as Russia)

Alot of people also like to claim the Chinese would win anything because of there population, i respectful disagree.

We allow Chinese economic growth out of own benefits to our society, while military growth we keep in check. We are quite nervous if not cocky about the rise of china.

This will start and have to change as time runs on, as well as that Mexico is starting to become a place of low-skill labor like China was in the good old days.

On massive scales its been quite awhile in China, although they have local village or even small city starvation. the threat still remains of large scale famine in China (although its much more serious an issue in India) and the standard of living in china is low and will continue to be for some time.

Im trying to find out where i got this part of my little rant, and the information with this, at last i give up as i can not find it. Which sucks because it was Propley genius.

If one looks at many banking sectors and other low-wage cheap labor institution, Mexico is becoming a prime example of this. Many if not all the all the reasons the investors go to china, there looking to Mexico now for the same reasons. The Chinese and the United states are both starting get there eyes set on mexico and invest there. http://www.bajainsider.com/baja-business/economicfuturemexico.htm http://www.inforefuge.com/mexico-economy-fdi-trade
http://www.cdfai.org/PDF/Mexico Current and Future Political, Economic and Security Trends.pdf

Bare in mind soon Mexico will be the 5th largest economy in the world.

Investment in Brazil is hugely important, as much so if not more then say India. which is why it bothers me the united states (up to the last recent trade deals) have been reluctant to turn there attention to befriending the power of South America. Meanwhile the Chinese have taken already a huge investment interest in Brazil and unless the united states acts fast it might lose the overall race for Brazil. Perhaps Brazil will try to meet in the middle and get benefits from both USA and China while still maintain some of the largest GDP growth in the world.

A Scramble for Brazil, such an interesting idea. Much like the "new" Scramble for Africa.

Pretty much both agreed on here.

Most was, a fairly "educated" one but a rant none the less, I unlike some of my other anti-Chinese collages will admit this *looks at Kali*

Economicly the only downside it has is the Chinese are forced to rely on the Silk Road or The Pacific for economic purposes, there terrain does economicly isolate them although its not a big a factor as to when compared with Military.

Im pretty sure you know about the Military limitings the Chinese state faces? so no point going over the same old same old.

The Silk road has always been relevant for China.

I was talking about the places the powers have used to invade China which has always been through the Manchuria region, a gap in the great geographic border that protects and isolates the Chinese state.

I never was talking about modern day puppet state Mongolia, I was talking about the badass Khan Mongolia and the region they used to get into China. If Mongolia thinks it can take on China then Well they can be absorbed into the Chinese state like everyone else.

Oh that would be an interesting thread Japan vs China. and that if the Chinese can even get a foothold into Japan, and using nuclear weapons would still receive harsh backlash no matter what.

Because the military tangent of China is directly linked to economy, the Chinese state inability to throw its weight around and now forced to use more intention to securing its borders from states that could "challenge it" its because of the surrounding factors China can not influence the world like America does.

To pretty much get off what im saying im going to allow Otto Von Bismarck to say it for me "The Americans are truly a lucky people. They are bordered to the north and south by weak neighbors and to the east and west by fish"

1. Because we can use china as a means to give the people a case to rally against (Kind of like red scare and the entire SOVIETS WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD, deal)
2. We can use China as a scapegoat
3. See Germany in 1890 and what everyone thought of its rising power.
4. See Japanophobia of the 1990s, now use Sinophobia.

To this I will try to find, HEY KALI *lol* but in the end will see if the Chinese economy repeats what Japan's did.

I can point out way more problems with India then i can almost with China, perhaps more so. Though we might try investing in India in order to have a strong "friend" on the border of China, although even im skeptical about India future. (Although some of there economic practices could be used in china, which could help the Chinese or it could not, who knows (Propley you) )

In the last sentence the word China can be easily replaced with America, and Damn it America get smart and invest in Brazil.

Kali well he hates anything that even looks like it might face the left side of politics, and I honestly don't believe im full blown Communist (A pinko without a doubt) im more or less Propley a Socialist-Syndicalism.

We can only hope so, although I often wonder why the U.S is interested in promoting democracy around the world when there slowly stripping away there own at home. Perhaps its time we looked more at ourselves and what where doing to protect our own democracy instead of forcing it own others, although I still love a more democratic china.

Im more interested in the thoughts and Opinions of the peoples and governments living in both countries are about reunification.

Again, you are mixing an economics debate with military. While military has an affect, it is not yet at the point that either country is exerting enough military power in the Pacific to really influence trade. You do not hear of reports of either country seizing trade vessles do you?
On the matter of the trade itself...
The US is dreaming if it thinks that it has the power just to pull out of the Chinese economy and allow it to collapse without any consequences. Not only will the US suffer from the immediate fall of their currency for failing to pay back their largest dept holder, there will also be other, immediate consequences. The international stock markets around the world would collapse almost immediately, if not immediately. The economies of nations around the world would crash and burn, including both the US and China. The US would be bringing international hatred and scorn down upon itself if it decided to take such a foolish manuver. And the sudden loss of goods from China will have massive reprecussions throughout the US as the people struggle to grapple with the loss of so many things that are parts of their daily lives. And even though China cannot project its power very affectively, it would probably declare war anyways. The war would probably never reach the shores of Taiwan or even cross the Himalayas. But it would be a symbolic war in which the US is the bad guy and China the victum, along with the rest of the world. The mere fact that China and the US, the two top militaries of the world, are at war will shake the confidence of every person in every country and make the recovery, if there is one, exceptionally slow and painful.

This is something that people sometimes just don't understand about China. China takes a pro-China stance. Its not about other countries, its about China. They will side with whoever holds their interests closer.

Just China and Russia? I have no doubt that China will win. Of course, it won't be.

Peace. The statement was not in an attempt to deny the evidence or fool you. It was an honest statement. I did not understand the direction with which you were trying to lead the direction of the conversation.

The population affect is the population affect. For every billion that the US has, it can spend at least 3 dollars on each citizen. For a billion dollars, China can only spare pennies on each citizen.

Yay and nay. On one hand, did you hear about the Urgur [don't know the spelling] riots a while back? It was the Urgur v. the Han who lived in the city. The PRC sent in 'security forces' to calm down the people. So there ARE ethnic tensions. But that is not new.
Again, 90-95% of the population is of Han decent. Not alot of room for ethnic tensions when one drastically out-numbers all of the others combined.

Famine is a constant concern in China. There has never been a time when it WASN'T a concern. If you are familiar with Chinese culture [some of it] some of it is very... conservative of resources. To say the least. Remember "Peace and prosperity"?

The workers taking down the Communist Party of China. Ironic, isn't it?
In any case, that would not be much of a surprise. The types of government have changed, but workers looking for fair treatment is as old as humanity itself. In China, there is a line to cross before it happens. But that isn't my concern, is it? As I pointed out to Kali on multiple occasions, I don't care WHO is in charge, as long as they are Chinese and have the backing of the people. The PRC may not the the complete backing, but you don't hear massive cries for revolution, do you?

I don't know where you are going with this particular piece.
But I may point out that China is actually suffering something similar. The OCP is going to eventually take a similar toll on China as is happening in Japan and Russia, just later on. The OCP will probably drastically reduce the Han majority [as minorities are excused from the Policy].

Again, my quote has nothing to do with military [the one you quoted and responded to with this].
But we may be examining two different definitions of 'win'. Militarily, yes, the Chinese probably would not win against the US. But there are some Chinese who hold surviving and outlasting others to be victories. A "It matters not who is right, but who is left" kind of idea. Certainly, the US could not 'win' against China by this definition, as the US people would have no stomach for killing so may Chinese, nor could the US actually win a military war on the ground.

So you are imperialist scum? And then, how is China's policy on the matter [such as in Africa] any different that you should be allowed to denounce it?

Who are you to judge who should get a military and who should not? What happend the state soverignty? What happened to the UN?

With massive social and military problems and a even more unskilled labor class and an economy that is supposed to be suppressed [sitting next to a superpower] and a smaller labor source and big problems with ethnic conflicts and a sour history with the US.

That is just sickening. We are not your slaves, you... gweilo.

I can guarentee you that nothing will change for the better if you pull our your money.

If they didn't and I was a Brazillian citizen, I would put the government on trial for treason. As a government official of any country, Democratic or not, a government, corrupt or not, is expected to benefit their country [or themselves] first and everyone else second.

I thank you for this. Humility is good. I kind of ranted myself [in the above paragraph on Brazil]. It kind of... comes with the territory. And no, I will not be deleting it.

That has kind of been covered. Ultimately, without US intervention, Japan would never win against China. It would be a slaughter for the millenia. Even with lesser technology, the Chinese would be close enough to utilize almost the full might of their numbers and just drown the Japanese in soldiers.

More democratic? You may just get that wish. Democratic? Probably not.
The US is less interested in promoting Democracy in China and more interested in dividing the Chinese people against their government. That isn't to say that they do not want to promote it around the world, just that their motives in China are not as pure as they seem. In several cases, Tiananmen Square protesters admitted that they only went because the US had sent people who promised citizenship and starter packs [money and such] in the US if they joined the protest. When one reporter asked a protester [now a US citizen] "What about Chinese Democracy?" he responded "What Chinese Democracy? I already have my Democracy." In other cases, it was reported that Chinese Americans had been paid to fly to China and join the protests. While this is probably not the case in all of the protesters [indeed, not all the stories could be verified, though they did come from Western sources], it casts doubt on the protests. If the US ever admitted it, the Chinese people would hate the US. And even if most had been lying, the mere chance or proof that one had done so would throw doubt onto the whole protest.
I would not say that the US is stripping away its Democracy... yet. Rather, it is CURVING it. Someday, it will snap and either a dark age will fall on the US, or the people will rebel in a Second American Civil War.

Hmm... I don't remember asking him directly, but I think that Pottman [our resident Taiwanese] is against the PRC, though I don't know what he thinks of reunification. From what I have gathered [from what he has said], he is a post-Revolution generation.

I'm willing to say that his beard shook the foundations of the world. The US tried to remove it a bunch of times!

Well, it appears Cuba likes him, so i'd have to go with badass.