Relations between Fascism-Keynesianism-Socialism

^Oh we can see where his view points lay.

I like how you just dodge everything and go straight to accusing Stalin and Mao of being the greatest murderers of the past century, how does this even relate with the topic?

Idiocy comes from you, not me. Stop jumping to different topics that have no relevance in the main topic of discussion.

But but but Stalin and Mao I must complain about it in order to cause an argument to which I couldn't actually do the original argument of the relations between Fascism/Keynesianism/Socialism and as such I have to give the typical response of "mass murder" in order to cause fighting where I will pull out internet reports that go "AHHHHHHHHH STALIN KILLED 1000 MILLION ZOMFG RUN HE IS SATAN" or some shit like that.

While both are stupid, I despise socialism far, far more. Maybe because it is more insidious, or just more visible, but I like to think it's because of the people.

People without a doubt the people, although I would love to meet a "true" extreme fascist and have him argue on the forums.

Well first off, fascism and racism are not synonymous, nor does fascism even have a predisposition in favor of racism. Nazism =/= fascism.

I think the primary reason I hate communism more than fascism is that proponents of fascism are not fifteen year old crybabies who want to be 'different,' they're people who understand that their ideology faces harsh criticism from all sides and yet choose to support it anyways. As a result of that criticism, and their inability to fall back on the legions of sissy girly 'comrades' that communists can look to when they're challenged, fascists develop a strong defense of their positions. As a liberal I stand naturally opposed to fascism and communism, but I see only one of them as something to truly despise. Whether that's because fascism is less visible or not as insidious, I don't know, but I like to think that it's primarily because communists as people, and communism as a culture are just intolerable.

Not to mention that they're better dressed and more reasonable than communists ever will be.

Dude... There is a difference between socialism and communism just like there is a difference between fascism and nazism. I like how you pick the extreme of one of them(socialism) but not the other in order to actually make a decent argument. The question was also not about if you hated socialist or fascist people more, but which of the ideologies you hated more.
As for the "more reasonable" I would like to remind you that we currently have a partly socialist government in Denmark and they do seem very reasonable and willing to cooperate even with the right.

Warburg, as you've been told several times before by both socialists and myself, your definition and understanding of socialism is deeply flawed. Socialism fundamentally means one thing: worker's ownership of the means of production. Or, perhaps more bluntly, the abolition of capitalism. Anything that claims to be socialist but does not hold this principle as its chief and original goal is not socialist.

The distinction between communism and socialism is relatively arbitrary; communism is better described as a state of society than an ideology, and people who identify as communists simply have a different endgame in mind than self-described socialists. There really isn't a difference between the two insofar as the mechanics of achieving their goals go. Socialists want to get rid of capitalists and capitalism, but may have different views on how exactly to go about doing it or what to do afterwards. Communists are exactly the same, but have a clear destination: communism. Communists are not 'extreme socialists' or some kind of Nazi-equivalent for the socialist ideology. They want to change society in exactly the same way that socialists want to change society. It's okay to use the terms interchangeably for the most part. The only time you really need to denote the difference comes about when you're looking for what they're saying about what will happen to society once capitalism is abolished. I'd say that I despise socialism and socialists just as much as I do communism and communists, and for the same reasons, if that makes you feel any better.

Actually it was just about whether I hated socialism or fascism more. Socialism and fascism are more than ideologies, and the 'culture' and people that surround the core ideology are the most visible and socially important part of the mix. I find socialists and communists to be really, really annoying and just generally despicable. I would not say the same for fascists.

Denmark is not socialist.

I actually enjoy the Fascist "Ultra nationalism" over the socialist "Workers state"

I'll take that as a compliment. Actually, I have pretty much always been better dressed than almost every commie i've ever met.

You must've jizzed in your pants when the USSR adopted 'socialism in one country'.

I'm whatever you want me to be, baby.
Nah, I just like making statements which imply something vaguely sinister. Bwah ha ha ha ha!

And I have later come to realise I was wrong. That was half a year ago. While I still think you can't define an ideology because it's a "living" organism, I've come to realise that Social Democrats can't be described as socialists.

I do know what communism is but for the sake of the argument I went along with your use of it.(as an ideology) That you afterward describe it as a "state of society" has no relevance and only broadens the topic we're discussing.

That's just plain wrong. While they might both wan't to seize control of the means of production, they have very different ways of doing it.

Actually I don't want to get rid of capitalism or capitalists. I've always found that it would be impossible to seperate us from them, and we need them to stay competitive.

No, actually most of us don't think a wonderful utopia where everyone shares everything is possible...
[/quote]It's okay to use the terms interchangeably for the most part.[/quote]
No, it's not. It confuses the topic at hand, and you should decide to use one or the other.
[/quote]The only time you really need to denote the difference comes about when you're looking for what they're saying about what will happen to society once capitalism is abolished. I'd say that I despise socialism and socialists just as much as I do communism and communists, and for the same reasons, if that makes you feel any better.[/quote]
See above... And no, it doesn't make me feel any better.

I don't think you meet a lot of fascists around where you live... They really arent' that nice with there hatred of democracy, tolerance, free speech, intellectuals, and pretty much anyone that isn't their colour or stand out from the crowd.
Just because someone challenges/don't share your view of the world doesn't make them "despicable."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_People's_Party_(Denmark)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Green_Alliance_(Denmark)
I said partly and that is partly.
Think I got it all

Did you actually read the article?

Ok, you don´t like it because is hard to accept the fact that there is a relation between fascism and socialism.

They are not equal in many aspects, but they are also simillar in many aspects and there is a relation between them. This was the objective of this thread. To show that relationship.

I just love how hyperbolic your message was.

Personally, I'd take over-opinionated idealistic crusaders over xenophobes with god complexes any day.

As an ideology communism is despicable. As a political reality communism is despicable. As a culture or movement, communism is despicable. Socialism is equally despicable in each of these respects.

That's not where the difference comes in. Communists could plan to seize control of the means of production exactly like generic brand socialists. There are communists who want to overthrow society and raise hell, and there are communists who want to get elected and raise hell. Socialists too. The distinction isn't made on how they seize control, it's about what's going to happen to us after that. Either way, they're both awful.

Then you are not a socialist. It's as simple as that. The one qualification that is absolutely necessary for something to be labelled as socialist or communist is that it has to abolish capitalism and remove the capitalist class.

But that doesn't detract from the fact that communists and socialists want to do the same thing, usually in the same way (as in, unless you specifically note that they aren't trying to then they are), and for the same general purpose.

It really doesn't. Unless the discussion is expressly about the difference, there isn't one to be made. All communists are socialists. Not all socialists are communists, but unless they specifically indicate that they aren't then there likely isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between them.

As I stated, there is a major difference between Nazism and fascism.

I don't care that they're challenging my views. I care that they're a bunch of whiny prepubescent crybabies, with a fetish for the color red and totalitarian regimes. Communists suck. Socialists suck. I despise both of them equally and for the same reasons, so making an issue out of their miniscule differences isn't really pertinent.

And Fascism is better how?

Most socialists don't want to "overthrow society and raise hell" as you so eloquently put it...

Mabye I should've expressed myself clearer. I believe the state should create publicly owned companies to provide an alternative to capitalist-run companies as to stay competitive. The individual can then make the choice where they want to work. I believe that if we get rid of the capitalists in our society(as in Denmark, not the world) we would lag behind. I see the capitalist-owned companies as a "sparring partner" to keep the state/worker-owned companies fit. I do not believe any kind of communism can be achieved in the short term(that would mean 200-300 years)

We do not all want the same thing, just like not all capitalists want the same thing. I don't see why we cant have different goals.

It's apparently guilty until proven innocent in your world... Just because I don't say "I'm not a commie" doesn't mean I am one.

Just like there's a major difference between communism(with that I mean Stalinism etc.) and democratic-market socialism.

You think I'm a "whiny prepubescent crybabies"?(and I promise I won't get angry and go tell Chelsea)
And I noticed that you excluded my post on Denmark being partly socialist. I guess that means you agree

Now question to Kali? You have stated many times that you support democracy even to the point where you would accept a corrupt democracy over the greatest nicest dictator any day because it was selected by the people, Imperial has alot of quotes that show this "The people will accept democracy no matter if they like it or not" now the question is? What if the will of the people is communism do you support what they people picked even if it is a communist government or do you overthrow the government because it is communist (Examples of democratically elected communist Salvador Allende, and E.M.S Namoodiripad) . I find this to be highly hypocritical if you go with the later as you are going against the will of the people in order to create a government to which you most like, the entire purpose of democracy as it allows the people of the state to have a choice in there leaders and if they so will to have a communist government then they will have it.