Josef Stalin Declassified

I completely agree with this, Red "army" was utter trash at that time and purging it only made it worse. And by world changes I mean that things change. Before winter war Russians did not have T-34 but they knew how to build them. After seeing how shitty their tanks were, they started producing T-34s in 1940 and when Germans invaded they had made only 300 of them. This is one of many examples of improvement they made including small unit tactics, new gear for infantry & new SMG (PPSH). When Germans invaded they adopted Blitzkrieg and perfected it with "Deep operations". Red army learned from its mistakes and by the end of WW2 it was the most strong & efficient land power in human history.

1. You stated your opinion, so it is you who has to back it up.
2. I kinda did prove my point in (at least) two previous arguments I took part in.

Well you do have to give me something other than your assumption here if you want to go forward with this. I'd also like to point out that what one thinks of a leader does not reflect on if he is good/bad. Though positive peoples opinion does help the "score".

Matter at hand is quite difficult, as it is hard to objectively calculate how people feel of their leader and expesially these two. Hitler was admired by many in Germany, but he oppressed all leftists, jews, gays.... Also Germans hated the man towards end of the war and after.

You have more of a case with Stalin, because of the civil war there were many whites and/or anti- communists who hated collectivization. On other hand Stalin was a golden god after the war, even to wast majority of non Russian population. But anti- communists were always present.

Jesus fucking christ Sly there's a new phrase in the Finnish language, it's called "olen kusipää". I think you should start using it, Sly.

Red army was no question uncontested winner and it was a long way to a 2nd place. I believe my knowlage on the matter is more than adequate backing for my statement.

There's obviously the number of victims in which Stalin did much more better. As you stated you do not care for this, but that is selective thinking and where as it should not be the sole criteria it most defenetely has to count. Also there's the way they killed people. Hitler killed because of the race, sexuality, religion etc. Stalin killed because of national security reasons. People whom he sent to gulags were for the most part anti- communist rebels.
Also he never wanted or attempted to create a slave state or slavery. Also Hitler had bigger disregard of life, than Stalin had. Hitler refused to abide by Hey convetion that would allow humane treatment of prisoners, despite several Stalins requests. His plan to starve whole soviet population is evil beyond a doubt, where as Stalin fed starving Germans in '45. Hitlers plan in USSR was to kill off as much people as possibly is quite clear: starve city to death and do not accept surrender, label everyone behind the lines as partisans, orders to shoot hundreds of thousands of civilians and many more countless crimes, that Stalin never issued. Where both did just as poorly as another was their expansionist foreign policy.

You are correct to the extend.
Stalin did write history for a long time, but after he died many truths have been dug up and countless more since collapse of USSR.


Thing you got wrong is that wast majority of my sources are from people that "hate" Stalin. Anthony Beevor my favorite author & Max Hastings both from UK and so on. So I think we are getting unbiased material. Also Hitler would be demonized by everyone non German (Axis actually) for crimes against humanity etc.

Yeah no *facepalm* You just don't get it do you? Hitler killed based on religion, sexuality and so on. Stalin because of national security, thus his actions are in some sense just.

Like my previous opponents you seem to have trouble reading and/or ignoring my posts. Half of the people you listed were national security risks other half mainly his paranoia.

This again? Fiiiiiiiiiine I repeat myself yet again. For fucks sake people learn to read

Those Polish officers were as were nearly all people send to gulags legit national security risks.

I'm also miss understood in a sense that you people seem to think that I'm arguing for Stalin. I'm not. I'm arguing in defense of Stalin, meaning that even if I'm not a fan per say, I do call out bullshit. I would also assumed that people challenging me on the matter would learn from their failed predecessors. I'm also disapointed how every single of you have used simplistic logic just like "miau miau miau what if I kill buh zillion people at random miau miau miau" no, just no.

Ps. No Stalin is not a saint, but anyone who would look at the facts (for a change) would know that (objectively speaking) Hitler is far bigger evil.

PPS. Yes, I'm very annoyed & frustrated to repeat my self for like a fifth time on this thread alone.

8 million only if famine is included and I don't believe that it was his fault. Also people executed by him includes "legit" executions not only paranoia purges. Also in Gulags no one was intended to die, but they did for various reasons. I would not put that number on as Stalins fault, but as a result of his policy. I also would want to point out, that numbers presented by me above are not speculations, they're actual recorded deaths.

So I would say that he killed 600 000 - 2 000 000 people (+ 1 700 000 from deaths in gulags, if you want to include them)

Yes

He did not kill, order nor wanted these people being killed. So in that sense it was not his fault, though you are right on another.

Yes, what are you getting at?

I give up on you, if I have to explain simplest thing in detail every second post, I'm not having an argument.