Josef Stalin Declassified

No killing of that made by Stalin can be justified.

Whay are you talking about? You are making historicall revisionism. There are proofs that Stalin signed orders for killing people, including the polish officers of the katyn case.

If you think acting like that will get you anywhere, it won´t. Stalin was criminal, responsible for the death of millions. And for someone not to like a guy, we don´t even have to use the argument that he killed millions. We will never the real number of deaths, but it must be between 20 million and 40 million.

The fact that he was a dictactor is enough to dislike him.

Ok I don't know whats happening here right now...

But my point is not disproven.
(Btw I disagree with crove)

I'm getting to what hopefully will be the last time I state my statement here (the debate here has become somewhat boring), so here we go:

Stalin was a mass murderer responsible of the deaths of millions, as was Hitler.
They both were ruthless dictators who were ready to use any means to get to power.
And once in power they both weren't afraid of using "harsh" measures to consolidate and hold all power to themselves.
Once the war broke out, both were ready to sacrifice their people, men, women and children, in order to win eachother, and both were ready to destroy anyone or anything that stood in their way.
And I think that not Hitler nor Stalin ever sacrificed a moment of thought to the suffer of their own people.
So, to me, Stalin was no better nor worse than Hitler.

I hope you understand me now.

As I said Stalin was no better nor worse than Hitler.

???

this might be a necropost but whatever, i'm bored
So I am going to bluntly explain, that Stalin did create the famine. (most of this text comes from my memory of the books I read and some from the book in my hand for dates etc)before I begin the famine wasn't 100% Stalin fault the whole communist regime must be held accountable, but mostly it was Stalin's fault.

In Stalin's eyes, all surviving elements of the pre revolutionary society: former capitalists,nobles,merchants,officials,priest and kulaks remained a threat, with all their class sympathies, traditions, habits, opinions, world view etc. They had to be unmasked and expelled from the soviet body politic. Only in late 1935 after years of denunciations, disfranchisement's and all the attendant deprivations, did Stalin seem to signal an end to the campaign against the "class aliens" (prelude to my point, hold on)

the dnipropetrovsk party secretary mendal m. Khataevitch made it clear to his party subordinates that the policy of collectivisation of agriculture was only superficially an attempt to improve soviet agriculture. Its true goal was the destruction of the class enemy, to be precise "the liquidation of the kulaks as a class"

predictably the consequence of the systematic annihilation of any farmer suspected of being a kulak was not economic growth but one the greatest man made famines in history. As the party descended on the countryside with orders to abolish private property and liquidate anyone who had more than the average amount of capital, there was chaos. Who exactly was a kulak? Those who had been better of before the revolution or after. What exactly did it mean to exploit other peasants? Lending them money when they were sort in cash? There was six criteria laid down, that any one of which qualified someone as a kulak. You should know these so I won write them down. However these were modified but were still far easy to apply in the field when collectivization began. Rather than see their cattle confiscated, many peasants preferred to eat them, so that by 1935 soviet livestock was reduced to half of its 1929 level. But the brief orgy of eating was followed by protracted, agonizing starvation. Without animal fertilizer crop yields plummeted. Grain seizures to feed Russian cities left entire villages with nothing to eat. Typhus followed hard on the heels of dearth. Eleven million people died in what was wholly unnatural and unnecessary disaster. Also close to two million people were deported to Siberia as "special exiles". Many of those who resisted collectivisation were shot on the spot; as many as 3.5 million victims of dekulakization died in labour camps. (don't even get me on about Stalins industry.. Prisoners build it. But it was prisoners, who were convicted of the slightest crimes. Example a joke about Stalin, true story) it was a crime the regime did it utmost to conceal from the world. Stalin also restored the old tsarist passport system to prevent famine victims fleeing to the cities for relief. Even the 1937 census was suppressed because it relieved a total population of 156 million, when natural increase would have increased it to 186 million.

I have read somewhere that Stalin (and the regime) exported huge amounts of wheat and grain during the famine, but I don't accuse Stalin of creating the famine.

1. Point being. Definition of a "kulak" wasn't precise. So you are OK with shootings and enslavement of ordinary people?

2. Famine reasons:

A) true, but still collectivisation was the biggest reason

B)that's why I said the "communist regime" because bolsheviks destroyed huge of amounts of peasants villages and stole their corn and food during the civil war. The communists were one the biggest reason for the famines during and after the civil war

C) can't blame those peasants, wouldn't want my property confiscated. Also if they gave them to the state, how would they fertilize their land. Also the the grain seizures to feed the cities was one the biggest reasons of the famine not marauding peasants

D)Stalin was responsibly. Because he wanted to get rid of kulaks. So he implemented collectivisation, which evolved into a famine.

edit. Bolsheviks didn't start massive collectivization "campaigns" right after the civil war.

Let's not forget the Doctor's Plot. Stalin may never have got it into full practice, but the possibility was there.

1./A)D)C)B) you should have said that you don't get it in the first place. Sure I can describe to you why did collectivisation cause the famine.

Its annoyingly simply really, Stalin implemented collectivisation to destroy the class enemy:kulaks. Peasants who already aren't the most well fed people in the world, are forced to give food for the cities are now forced to give away their livestock, plus they are severely hindered because of the six criteria and if they don't follow them, they are kulaks and are shot. So what do you expect, peasants who already aren't well fed are forced to give away their livestock because of the collectivisation, of course they aren't going to. Also I don't think its acceptable that million died because of them (also that's sooo over simplifying the issue), I don't blame those peasants I blame the regime. If the peasants had their way, Russia would have been a semi-democracy if not for Lenin crushing them during the civil war.

It all leads to Stalin and he's regime, wanting to destroy kulaks with collectivisation.

We aren't talking about how collectivization works. We are talking about that it led to a famine. I never say I agree with peasants action truly "I don't think its acceptable that million died because of them" also that oversimplification and not 100% true. (its like saying: millions died because of red army in ww2, its true but not true. They were forced into a situation and functioned accordingly) I understand their actions of eating their livestock (not that they formed militias etc. Forgot to but that in my last post), if you don't you aren't as smart as you claim to be. Also would you be so kind and give me source about them militias etc, sound interesting and I want to hear were they a problem everywhere or just isolated incidents

collectivisation is never justified. collectivasation was implemented by Stalin to get rid of kulaks, he didn't meant to cause the famine it was a byproduct of he's actions, its still he's fault. Don't make me brake it down to you why.

I thought this thread was done a long time ago. Still arguing about the famine?

Hey guys ummm , more or less deadtrap, but can we tone it down on the insults please?