The First World War

You wouldn't want to live in a society where everyone is equal? Ya, that certainly would suck if the poor got fed and the rich weren't excessively wealthy.

Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous that some people have to work two jobs constantly just to keep a house over their heads? Fuck, they can do nothing wrong and get fired just because of layoffs and end up losing everything. They don't even have to lose both jobs, just one and they'll have to default on their mortgage, etc.

How is it in anyway just that people can lose everything after doing everything right?

Don't play semantics.

The factory is merely the best example because it is easy to comprehend and has the most easily understood command structure.

Other than that, there are many factories in America. The number is constantly changing because of the current economic turmoil (I googled it and that's what I got in response) though. America may not be the mass producing power it was in the 1800s but we still make a good deal of items. Notice if you walk through a store way you'll see many goods advertised as being "made in America".

I was responding to what he was talking about as the Communist society. He said there would be rich government officials and poor workers. I said there would only be workers with a median income between the rich now and the poor now.

It wasn't ideological at all. Why don't you stop going so low as to take things out of context for the sake of your argument?

Well we'll never know because the Capitalists keep shooting everyone who tries to make one. The Forgotten War, fought after the USSR was started. The Spanish Civil War when Anarchists tried to make a Leftist Spain. The slaughter in Paris after the Paris Commune was declared... The list goes on and on.

I want to live in a society where I am not stuck in the same situation I started in with no hope of moving up.

There's something called education. If you at least graduate high school, chances are you won't have to work two jobs to keep a house over your head. And if it is that stressful, there are things called apartments. Also, there are usually two people working in a household now, not just one.

If you did everything right, you would not be in a position to lose everything. If you did everything right and nothing wrong, you would have a back-up plan for those situations.

Read above

There's a huge difference between the middle class and what you described.

lol.

Of course they are going to advertise made in america stuff more than they ever did. The reason being is they are harder than ever to come by.

Oh the irony.

That's why having no military would prevent a communist society without one from ever lasting more than a week. That was my point...

If you don't get an education because your too stupid to, I can't much say there's much for you. Though, I don't see why any reasonable society would force someone to be born into a poor family because of a mistake their father/mother made over a decade ago.

Wouldn't it be ridiculous if your financially challenged family had a stable income and the Wallstreet Fatcat was only Middle Class? That would be ludicrous.

Other than that, I don't see why you seem to think that only a fraction of the profits produced in a factory deserves to go to the workers while the lion's share goes to management. Management is just pointing, the workers are the ones actually doing things.

Given your father is a factory worker I somehow doubt that he was able to pay for someone going to College without going into some sort of debt. Ultimately unless your mother gets a job almost as soon as she is out of College I think your family could be in financial trouble.

And for the record, going from homeless to debt-ridden College student isn't much of an upgrade. Especially when that upgrade is made because you married someone and took a portion of their income.

Aye, obviously when you can't find problems in the ideology you should insult some small sects of it. Perfect reasoning. Why don't I say that Libertarians are a bunch of randriods who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They merely were swayed by the moderately well phrased text in Ayn Rand's books because of their lack luster intelligence. Ultimately, the majority tend to become more moderate over time because no one could possible believe such nonsense until they die except Ron Paul.

That is the extent of your argument.

You may as well say bronies become bronies because they want to feel socially accepted. That's fucking retarded. Leftists are openly resented in America. Saying "The only good Commie is dead Commie" doesn't turn any heads here.

Management is what keeps everything together. It is like glue. Without glue, everything falls apart.

There's a groundbreaking new theory called planning ahead. I think you should try it sometime it really helps.

My dad was poor in his child years but you know what? He worked his ass off and eventually became one of the most successful lawyers in our county. He makes about 300k a year and yeah you could call him rich. Coming from a family that had 8 kids and only made about 100k is pretty damn successful.

That is what is great about America, if you work your ass off you can get a successful job and become "rich".

Starting at a 100k is still a bit rich, even with 8 kids. Or at least upper middle class.

In a world where something like a fifth of the population control something like four fiths of the resources I would find it very difficult to say that everyone has an equal chance.

Not even close.

Wait, what was the years your dad was making 100k? Because if it was in the late 70's or 80's then 100k is the equivalent of like 200k now. Plus only 40k now is continued middle class.

You are correct.

Oh boy.

And what would happen to stupid people in a socialist society?
And for the record, my Father is one of the smartest people I know, he isn't stupid, he made bad decisions, and thought that working in a factory wouldn't be so bad. He was wrong, though.

Why not? Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor is still stealing, and stealing is a crime no matter what. I would never accept stolen money. I would rather make my own money.

It would be ludicrous to give anybody any amount of money they don't deserve.

If you don't like the system, there are alternatives. Like cooperatives and the such. And if you are going to say "most people don't know about the cooperatives" and think that is a justification for socialism, then a) you're idiotically and dangerously radical, and b)Why don't you tell people about cooperatives? We have free speech you know.

Well of course my family can't pay for my college. I'm going to attend a community college at first, and figure it out from there. I could probably join the military part-time, like the reserve or National Guard, and have them pay for it.

An educated person can make money, a homeless person can't. And I don't think my mother got loans, I'm not sure though, I don't live with her.

What?

All I did was describe ever socialist I have ever met.

Well now that's just untrue. I haven't even read anything by Rand. I didn't know who she was until after I became a libertarian.

No, mine was a fact, you are simply butthurt.

That one is true too. Most bronies are weird and socially awkward.

I don't really care.

It was like 100k back then. 70's and 80's. So I guess around 50k. He was Middle Class

http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/10/31/whats-a-middle-class-income/

Just thought I'd pop in, remind you all that the only good commie is, y'know, a dead commie. Okay then, I'll be off.

There would be no "up" to move to. And you would still be moving up because the average income would go up. It's not like you'd make a million dollars but it's like how people a hundred years ago had much less than they do now. By the time you've entered and left the workforce you'll have seen a large increase in material wealth among the people.

Aye, and what if you don't? Do you deserve to be plagued by poverty your entire life because when you were 18 you made just one stupid choice and left High School? Do you deserve to die younger because at 18 you made a stupid choice? Never get to retire? That's ridiculous.

Apartments are still costly, you know. And it doesn't take an economy led by some infallible genius to be able to put people in 500 square foot boxes. Shit, if you have a (serious) mental condition and happen to be poor you might just end up on the streets.

Ya, if you have a wife/husband. Or, rather, if you can even afford a wife/husband. Hell, many people are, say, asexual and thus have a hard time finding a partner of any sort because they have no sexual attraction. I don't see why they must suffer for something that was beyond their control.

Let's say you run a Burger King franchise. So things are going pretty cool 'cause it's 2006 and everything is awesome. But then 2008 happens and you have an economic meltdown. Now people are in a recession, they don't want to eat at Burger King anymore and soon your business starts to slow down. Scratch that, your business starts to crumble.

Eventually it gets so bad you have to drop the Burger King. Your losing money by trying to keep it running and it's not working out. So after telling all your workers what they'll have to tell their families tomorrow, you head out on the job market. Problem here though, so much labor has flooded the market that most every job is taken up or in high competition.

Now you used to be a well-to-do man. With no income, no you didn't find a job sorry, you can't meet your mortgage payments. You can't sell the house because no one is buying right now. So you have to default and lose the house.

Now then, unlike the stories I am often told about some twat from rural Alabama becoming a super rich asshole for his smarts, this actually isn't unrealistic. In fact, it happened all the time during the meltdown. After doing nothing wrong they couldn't find a job and thus lost everything.

As if people can plan for a recession. You can't see or hear a recession. You can't feel it coming. You can't taste or smell it. Up until you realize you've been laid off, you might not even notice it. For all anyone knows the entire economy could be destroyed tomorrow because of some lewd bankers.

A man working two jobs? Unstable income? Threat of forclosure? Debt?
Nothing unknown to the Middle Class.

Dumbass, there's 300 million people in America. You don't think there's any factories? This isn't fucking Estonia. We actually mass produce shit here.

No, the reason they do is because people have some half-witted sense of nationalism and decide to buy the American good for 5 bucks more than the Chinese one.

I haven't taken anything out of context. I've actually gone on full front responding to your arguments. It's almost ironic against yourself though because you cut out the majority of the paragraph I wrote there for the one or two lines that might sound bad.

But obviously they did last more than a week. Hell, the CNT-FAI was locked in a Civil War at the time. The Paris Commune lasted for two months when it was hated with a passion by the entirety of France. It's not like being an Anarchist makes it impossible to carry a gun.

That's total bullshit. The odd thing though is that you know it is too.

Fuck, why didn't Japan just plan ahead for the 9 point Earthquake? What dumbasses, they deserve every lost life and dollar in property damage. They should've known it would happen eventually, what sort of twat doesn't plan ahead?

I was actually considering your post until you said his family was making 100k a year. That's not poor at all. So basically he went from a lot above average to upper middle class. And no, 300k a year isn't rich. That's not really social mobility. And come on, if everyone who worked hard became rich then why are there still poor people? Certainly the majority are hard working. If hardworking = wealth, surely poverty should be far less noticeable.

The economic meltdown happened to my dad but still we surrvived.

I don't see what you are trying to say.


EDIT: I don't even know what my grandparents made.....the only thing I know was that his mother didn't work and his father worked at a Ford factory.

By the way, nice double post.

Wow. Ok, maybe it's because fastfood and law have next to nothing in common? I'm relatively certain they're both entirely different industries.

It's because law is a lot more stable especially when you're a high ranking member of it. My family survived too because my Dad is a professor and professors can't get fired unless they sex up a student. Your family just has unusually high job security due to the profession and level of skill your father has.

At the time your grandfather would've been at work, factory working was a pretty solid Middle Class job. Nice benefits, good money (for the time, obviously), and all that. And for the record, your grandfather was probably hard working. Why wasn't he rich if hardworking = success?

Ya I was expecting someone to have posted between them by the time I posted the 2nd one. I might fix it later, or not. It really doesn't matter if I get a warning though because Tribune elections are gone and I have nothing to lose by getting one.

@Karakoran
I'm waiting for a response to my post.

I agree with your entire post except these three parts.

Well people still need lawyers in a recession, people always need lawyers. Hell, some might have been more successful in a recession because of all the business suits.

Ya, kind of took a while. Long posts everywhere man.

They'd get the same as everyone else. Why should someone be poorer for being randomly given poor genes? For that matter, why does someone deserve money for hitting a completely random chance and getting intelligent genes?

Exactly. One stupid choice and the potential benefits society would've gained from having an intelligent man like your father there have been crushed. In Socialism society would've tapped that potential. In Capitalism it is tossed aside because "he deserved it".

By that logic you accept stolen money simply by existing. The water you drink is purified with taxes. The food you eat is grown with farm subsidies. The air you breath is kept pure by regulations paid by taxes. You're able to have freedom because our military is funded with taxes.

Exactly, that's why management should have their incomes cut greatly or perhaps just circumnavigate management entirely.

You fail to see that Socialists are not Socialists for self-benefit. Socialists are Socialists for the benefit of others. Anyone here on the forum is smart enough to make 10 times the per capita if they were willing to try hard enough. But we, as Leftists, reject that. What good is material value if there are still people crushed under the yoke of Capitalism?

I'm reminded of a line from a song from an ex-Communist state:
"Fighting the fight for the whole world to save."

Leftists want to free everyone into equality, not just benefit themselves. And besides, cooperatives tend to suck. They don't have the proper funding to get off the ground.

I honestly don't see why someone might be denied a proper education because they didn't have the money. I suppose it's just another injustice that you'd like to ignore.

Cheat the system LIKE A BAWSS.

Well obviously she has some sort of student loan or something. I doubt your father had enough to pay upfront.

What it sounds like is that your mother is able to get that loan by being married to your father who probably has a good credit record. That's not really a good show of social mobility.

I would go to a convention or something then. Maybe talk to some grown socialists. Obviously if you just talk with 13 year olds you'll get a bad impression.

Well you were false too. There's plenty of not teenaged Socialists.

Well ya if you want to be an asshat who deserves to be cut you could say that. But my point is that no one becomes a brony because they think it'll make them friends. They do it because they legit like MLP. Same with Commies.

That was part of my former argument that no one becomes a Leftist because they want friends. It makes them enemies, in fact. They do it because they like Leftism no matter how much they are resented.

Umm, I just stopped attempting to read the above arguments.

My dad does only simple civil cases that people can do by themselves.