A question isolationism vs intervention?

what's calarbrian?
an i meant how come they can wrok together like that? they operate now
as if they were a fricking country and that's just...weird? Any thoughts on that?

Well, Calabria is a place in Italy. Something from, of, or having to do with Calabria is Calabrian.

And to be honest, you're a funny guy, hopefully someone cares enough to explain to you how the world works someday.

Maybe I'm getting confused, national identity=culture? Because I believe there IS an American, USA culture, but I don't know how to explain it in English.

Calabria is the southern part of Italy. I looked up that wiki's link, it say that they are working together in Italy, not Texas.

Thanks but that sounds like a back-hand compliment and ill take it. Also ive learned a bit more
here then from history class and world history in general soooo yeagh i like this site.but communist here
are more fanatical then religius people and atheist sometimes.

Yarp they have territory in texas and working with italy is what i understood.

That's just not true, as evidenced by your own statements. If it really was about "helping people in a struggle" then you'd devote the same amount of attention and care to your fellow Americans as you do to Mexicans. You obviously have no greater humanitarian agenda at heart here, you're just a racist.

Yeah, you would be. Being an American doesn't mean you have to behave in any particular manner. It also doesn't mean you should be exempt from criticism for your obviously racist, nationalistic views.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with the fact that basic standards of social decency include treating your fellow countrymen with at least as much respect as you do any other men.

Except you wouldn't, because you consider Mexican lives to be more valuable than others, despite not being affiliated with Mexico.

If it had nothing to do with race or nation, you wouldn't be claiming you'd rebel in the event of an American intervention, and you wouldn't care so much about Mexico.

Well, you actually don't. You said you consider the lives of Americans to be less valuable than those of Mexicans. That's not equality, that's racism.

damn kali you ripped up his testimoney worse then phoneix wright. i wish you could do that to most
people here in "south florida" they have same lines as him.

There is a Mexican race?

There is a Mexican nation. Racism and nationalism are virtually indistinguishable, and nationalism is an infinitely more cumbersome word to use, so I usually opt for racism in its stead. Of course, the statements are just as accurate either way.

1. It seems your turning my points into racism, I guess its because that's what your used too, ill make it simple, I care about the Mexican people more then the US governemnt, I never said I disliked or hated my fellow Americans as a people, when I was talking about open rebellion, I was talking about war with the establishment that is pro Mexican occupation.

2.its not as black and white as you think, I hate the mexican government it is a disgusting failure that should be re done if this was happening in Canada which it is not would you see it as a betrayal to America for not caring about Canadians? I don't ask for exemption from my obviously nationalistic views, just because I am Hispanic you automatically assume I would only help other Hispanics regardless of race I hold all people in my heart the same, I am around struggling people all the time, I help my community who are American citizens btw, but this isn't about me, I am merely defending a position I hold for another country, it jas nothinh to do with race or nationalism, what have I said that would give you the concluding that I am racist?

3. I said in my last response that I hold all people regardless of race or nationality in heart the same way, but i guess you forgot that.

4. Hmm you seem to be targeting me as person more then you trying to debate with me about the situation in Mexico, but still, I help people.everyday I volunteer in my community, I work like a regular person, and I contribute to society, however you see

HISPANIC , MEXICO, HELD OVER USA, RACISM!!

5. Yes I would, in fact I despise intervention of Any kind, however Mexico is closer and it effects me personally therefore i will stand tall to stop the continouation (spell check) of this vicious circle.

6. The average American does not have to worry about being caught in the middle of a drug war, the average American is safe, the population of every nation deserves to be safe, Mexico is no exception, I did not say I value the life of an American less then a Mexican. I merely stated that the american is safer then the Mexican, and then this falls back onto everybody deserves security, and I feel intervention does not grant that.

I feel that this debate is starting to become more about me, I may have offended you, but this does not call for you to call me racist, i take that very seriously.

@Kali

You mean North Cuba?

I understand what you're saying, but I believe America isn't a nation in the same sense that France, China, Russia, or any other nation in the "old world" is. We are based not on a shared ethnicity, religion, language, or anything of the sort, we are, or at least were, founded on ideas, ideas of liberty and democracy.

Do you get it?

I didn't say you hated Americans. You did say that you consider them to be less important than Mexican citizens, however.

Doesn't matter (and frankly I don't see what other kind of rebellion you could have in that circumstance) because you're still rebelling against your nation for the sake of the people from a foreign nation with which you have no affiliation. You are not a Mexican, yet you routinely use the "we" pronoun when referring to Mexicans. That's the kind of attitude that pisses people off, and rightfully so.

It has everything to do with race and nationalism, as evidenced by the previous statements you've made, and the manner in which you address the issue at all.

Except you clearly said something completely different before you were accused of being a racist/nationalist. Changing your story to avoid criticism might be possible when there's not a full log of everything you've said and when you've said it, but your statements are right there for everyone to see.

I am targeting you as a person because it's your personal beliefs and views that I take issue with. I do not abide racism and nationalism, and I am particularly offended by the attitude of victimization that you've adopted to shield yourself from criticism on that basis. You deserve discrimination for your beliefs and attitude, and thinking like you do is a large part of both the negative sentiment that many Americans harbor towards Mexican immigrants and the racial enclaving that continues to divide the US and the world.

Well, yes, when you're an American citizen.

Continuation.

It's not really your opposition to intervention that concerns me. I don't really support one either. It's the rationale behind your position that I find intolerable.

Except you did, and not in some implied fashion, but in a literal, exact way.

No shit. Again, it's your personal beliefs and attitude that I find unacceptable, not your position on the issue of intervention (though it's obviously flawed as it stems from your worldview).

Obviously, as you changed your position as soon as I called you out on it. Not many people like being called racists. That doesn't mean that they aren't.

@The Shaw
Nationalism is indistinguishable from racism because both are amorphous and rely on moving-target criteria. Additionally, nations are almost always, with the notable exception of the US and a few other countries, defined by race. Even when they aren't totally defined that way, race always plays a huge factor in the way that nations differentiate one another.

And just to clear things up, nations are not countries. Despite the way in which the word is thrown around in general conversation (and I'm party to this myself), nations are distinct from states and do not constitute geopolitical units. Nations are groups bound by some unifying cultural factor, the most common of which is race.

As I said previously, racism is a term of convenience I used in place of nationalism. However, Romulus isn't targeting Mexico because he feels it's a country that has some kind of superior ideology or political system. In fact, he said that he hated the government of Mexico and cared only about its people, who he referred to as "brothers and sisters". It's more than obvious that he's referring to an ethnic bond, which brings both nationalism and racism into the equation.

While I'm confident that you can't deny me victory on the semantics of the matter, I see no reason to find nationalism any more tolerable than racism. Both are irrational prejudices that define people based on arbitrary criteria beyond their control.

Alright you want to make it about me? Then let's get this over with.

I care about the average Mexican more then the American equivalent, maybe its racism or national pride but I dont see it that way, the mexican citizen does not have the same security as the American one, I see that as a unfortunate circumstance, that will not be remedied by intervention, hence why I will openly protest the intervention.

You honestly don't give a fuck about Mexico or any other people outside of the border and that's sick, I don't know you so im not going to say anything about you after this. You have taken offense that I will help a country that needs it over the usa, you call it betrayal nationalism and racism go ahead, call me racist for helping those who need it, but be damn sure I would help you in heartbeat if you keeled over in front of me and needed assistance.

Since this is no longer about Mexico and more about me I should tell you why I want to help, it bothers me that people are in a struggle everyday, in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Americas one thing I am a major proponent for is security, Mexico is close only 3 hours away and it pains me that I can't do anything about it, heating about people dying and losing there possesions and lives, only to come here and face discrimination. So i want to make life easier over there so they as a people no longer have to face discrimination. It's wrong what's happening over there and if there is something I could do I would do it.

It is a coincidence that I share ethnicity with them, or maybe its not. I would gladly help those that need it. everybody deserves security @Kali

I don't really agree with either side here, but I can certainly relate more to Rom then Kali, and I have the very same sentiment as he said, "I am a human first and an American second" or something similar. And Kali, you're really not one to talk about irrational prejudice.

Jose Ingenieros, a.k.a as Giuseppe Ingegnieri (you don't have to know the guy, and if you do, well that's very good I'll be surprised) was born in Italy in 1887. It's believed his parents migrated to Argentina when he was six or seven years old. Now, he technically was Italian, but he always felt like an Argentine, that doesn't mean he was being racist towards the Italians.
The point is, you don't choose your nationality (neither your "race"), and it's ok if you care more about "your people"; I really don't care about anything that could happen to say, a French, but that's not because I hate them, I just care less.

I think so.... I was talking more about this anyways

http://science.jrank.org/pages/8266...onal-Identity-Ideologies-Americanization.html

(I just clicked the first thing Google threw at me, and didn't even read, I just skimmed it )

You really shouldn't care less about anyone because of where they come from.

Oh, but that's just me being an unsensitive bastard.

It's both.

You aren't a Mexican. You do not owe any allegiance to Mexico. You do not receive benefits from Mexico. You do not live in Mexico. You weren't born in Mexico. Yet you still think Mexicans are more important than your own countrymen. That is no less than racist, nationalist garbage that deserves the harshest of criticism.

That's actually just not true. You can see my previous post in this topic on the issue and see that very clearly. I do not and will not place the lives of foreigners above those of my fellow citizens. It's a fundamental principle of citizenship that you look out for each other before the rest of the world, and it's even more essential that you don't jeopardize the lives of your countrymen for the sake of people elsewhere. Now, there are times when our society might decide that it's worth it to intervene on the behalf of another party, and that's fine, because society as a whole has decided it. But when you want to subvert the wishes of the society that you were born in, live in, and benefit from because you feel you have some kind of ethnic bond with a foreign people, then you are no less than a bigot, and you deserve all of the discrimination on that basis that you get. Especially when you try to play the victim.

That's not why I take offense at all. I take offense because you would do so for no reason other than your ethnic heritage. There are places all over the world, and in the US itself that need help, and yet you put Mexico first, and you refer to Mexicans with the "we" pronoun. You dissociate yourself from your American citizenship and cling to your racial and national ancestry. That's exactly what's responsible for the backlash against immigrants and multiculturalism, and exactly what's responsible for the racial enclaving that persists around the world. Your beliefs aren't uniting anything. They serve only to divide.

This has nothing to do with allegiance, or ethnic backround, I was raised to believe that all people are equal and all deserve help, why cant you get it that this has nothing to do with race nationalism or any other kind of ism

You keep on saying that I value the lives of other people more then the lives of my Countrymen which is am extremely outdated way of thinking. I simply value all people the same, you are the one who believe the lives of those you share citizenship with ate greater then those who are not. Honestly you are scolding me like if I openly murder Americans it reminds of the bible. ,thou shalt only love one country.

You ask why I put mexico over the usa, well read the thread, This is about Mexico and pertaining to the mexican people, countries are irrelevant, heritage is irrelevent. You are calling me racist calling me a bigot when all your doing is generalizing me, and you keep on telling me that im the bigot.

I will openly protest a intervention of Mexico not because of ethnicity but because it will make life there harder. Ethnicity is Irrelevent @Kali