Ancient History

One author who thinks Christianity played a part in downfall of the roman empire, is Adrian goldsworthy who is Christian btw

That still doesn't make it a very trustworthy source.

Was that someone else to whom I had to explain how Wikipedia wasn't biased? Wait, now that I think about it, I think that was when General Bonaparte trolled us all about the Illuminati...my apologies.

Let me break it down for you:
- I don't think Christianity will end the world or anything. I do think organised religion can be very dangerous indeed.
- I'm in support of free and full religious freedom. However, this does NOT mean religion can be used as an excuse to restrict the freedoms of others, which is what fundamentalists seem to want to do.
- As we all said before, none of us think Christianity was the sole and single reason for the fall of the Empire. Did it have a part in it? Of course. But if Islam were to be founded instead of Christianity, it would've been Islam. It isn't Christianity that caused all of it, it's just that religious strife in general caused instability and unrest.

Yes, that's the modern definition. To the ancient Greeks and Romans, a barbarian is pretty much anyone who wasn't Roman or Greek. Had they encountered the Chinese (who had a very advanced culture at the time, and don't fall under the definition you gave), they would've called them barbarians.

We're disagreeing with you, not persecuting you.

You missed my point completely. If I may quote you: Read again.

Nor did I. The question was: When was the Empire more stable, under Paganism or Christianity? The answer: under Paganism. In this context, Paganism and Christianity refer to periods of time, and in the former period the Empire was more stable. This has little bearing on the religions themselves, with the exception of there being more religious unrest in that period.
Just because we don't bow to and praise Christianity doesn't mean we utterly hate it and spit on it at every possibility, no matter what you think. This is the internet, people are going to disagree with you.

I'm sure an atheist has no idea what being persecuted means when you're in the US, and they should apologize to the masses of Christians who're obviously being persecuted by the small minority. You're being an ignorant idiot, get over yourself.

There are quite a few religious people on these forums, and even more who don't reject Christianity (like me). I said it before, and I'll say it again...even better, I'll quote myself:

This is obviously not true, because you must think Christianity will destroy the world and cause an apocalypse to believe it had a part in the fall of the roman empire. /sarcasm

Bullshit

You said an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind yet you believe in the Death Penalty, I sense hypocrisy.

I am not the one who made an immature post to get a like but failed. As for the Jews and Pagans, lolwut?

Because it can influence your opinion on this matter.

Name one.



EDIT: Sly, proof of your immaturity ^^

Unit, I still don't understand what you are trying to say about Wikipedia.

I gave you more sites.

Of course it had a part, just not what you are making it out to be.

I am being annoyed aren't I? That is considered a form of persecution.

It was immature of him to post that, I feel it is the first signs of immaturity.

I agree Organized relgion can be dangerous at times if put into the wrong hands.

I know people are going to disagree with me on this forum, I am saying I am the minority of this forum. There are much more atheists on this forum than religious people. Most religious people don't post much so I won't get much help in my arguements for Christianity. Further proving my point that you guys will just keep posting a shitstorm and banding together to take down the Christian.

@GeneralofCarthage You don't know that Christians persecuted pagans and Jews? Wow...

Also not everybody is so biased about this as you. So yea @slydessertfox isn't influenced by he's feelings, he looks AT THE FACTS like you should.... And I can name an historian out my heard right now, Adrian goldsworth. who is a christian

And also this isn't about is Christianity good or moral. only that, the fact is that it helped the downfall of roman empire. I couldn't care if you were a Muslim etc but if you don't have facts you are wrong, that's what people are doing, not persecuting you

BTW sometimes your age really shows

I'm saying that calling Wikipedia biased because you disagree with what it says is ridiculous. Heck, that goes for anything, not just Wikipedia. However, I think you referred to some book while quoting the Wikipedia page, so I probably misunderstood something.

Then, what part did it have?

It would be if it were our goal to annoy you. From Sly's replies, he seems annoyed by your responses as well. Are you trying to annoy him? No, I doubt that. You're simply disagreeing with him, and as both of you don't seem to understand the point of the other, you get annoyed.

I suppose that's true, the forums, heck, the internet generally contains more atheists and agnostics than religious people, some of which is caused by said internet.

They're posting more than you'd think. However, they also aren't as vocal about their religion as you are. Also, that first statement proves nothing about the second one, which is false anyway. We're not banding together to take down the Christian, we're agreeing on the points you're disagreeing with. Regardless of your faith, or anyone's faith, for that matter, we both think the Roman Empire was more stable when it was Pagan. Again, this has little to do with it being Pagan, but more with other factors.

I wasn't calling Wiki biased, it was a article about a book, which I called the author of that book biased.

Minor.

Understood.

Not in this thread that is.

@thelisener

Yes I do know that Jews and Pagans were persecuted by Christians. Ex. 1st Crusade, Teutonic Order, Black Death

1) I couldn't understand your first sentence.
2)Good is a basis of moral
3)I never said it was about whether Christianity was good, moral, etc.
4)I provided a Wiki article helping my cause so yeah I definately didn't provide evidence. /sarcasm

Yeah, that's what I thought, in that case, it was a misunderstanding on my part.

How detailed.

Fair enough.

Let me elaborate on it some more: When the Empire was Pagan, the Romans didn't have such widespread corruption, lack of manpower and aggressive neighbours when they did later on, during the period it was predominantly Christian. Therefore, the Empire was more stable when it was Pagan. The spread of Christianity seemed to divide the Empire more and more, helping the worsening of the problems I mentioned earlier. Had the conversion to Christianity happened much earlier, chances are they would've held out longer, as most religious strife would've been over by the time the Huns came, for instance. Of course, the Empire couldn't last forever, and they would've fallen regardless.

I see your point. Christianity could have turned families who were half Christian and half Pagan against each other. It isn't easy converting to an entirely new religion that had been persecuted for so long.

Constantine did make Christianity legal, I think, so that probably did increase conversion. Fear of persecution itself was probably a factor that held it back as well. What probably held it back the most was the fact that it was almost entirely new, and not so much the fact that it had been persecuted once.
Of course, once those who initially converted got children, they taught them the Christian ways, and since back in the day there was less interest and motive for critical thought, most people would stick by what their parents taught them...that is, until the Reformation, I suppose.

Wikis generally should not be used as evidence of anything as anyone can edit them.

Yes, and as soon as someone puts something in that's wrong, it's generally corrected quite quickly.

You can't even edit it too much.

You just used it to discredit me in another part of your post.

I believe in the death penalty only for mass murderers. If you take an eye who is taking a bunch of eyes, you save more eyes.

I didnt make it to get a like. The Christians were the ones who wiped Paganism off the map, and started persecuting Jews almost as soon as they got to power for killing Jesus.

It can, but I don't let it, unlike you.

Adrian goldsworthy

Care to share another? It was already stated above but you do tend to repeat other people's post.

1) There are still some Pagans out there.
2) Is there something wrong with MOSTLY converting people to your faith in which some believe in sacrificing people?
3) I see what you are trying to say.
4) Yes it was wrong for the persecution of Jews and Pagans.

But alas it has.

Also I looked at Adrian Goldsworthy,

Here is a description of his book, "How Rome Fell"

• Adrian Goldsworthy: How Rome Fell. New Haven: Yale University Press, 2009.
• Policies dealing with one problem generally create problems elsewhere. Leaders need to value the state over personal safety.
• Barbarians were mostly opportunists who couldn't press home an advantage. Rome could afford small defeats.
• Foreign wars were frequent. They provided glory, and limited threat, but dissipated limited resources.
• Most emperors of the Late Empire were killed by rivals. Rarely did emperors die of natural causes.
• The Principate worked because of the reliance on non-professional aristocrats in the Senate.
• As the Empire grew large and unmanageable, emperors could delegate to their known friends/relatives in the Senate.
• With the end of the Principate came reorganization, increased specialization, and bureaucracy. Results weren't good.
• The Church was able to fill in the power vacuum created by declining central authority.
• Late Empire was like an old body that could no longer fight off infection.

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/fallofrome/gr/050509howromefell.htm

I am not familiar with historians regardless, much less the ones I do know's religious affiliation. Actually, Adrian Goldsworthy is one of the few historians I actually know by name (minus plutarch and those ancient historians). I didn't just post him because thelisener did, I posted him because I actually knew he was a Christian and have read about him before.

Let me rephrase that: Virtually wiped them off the map.

Who are you to judge religions by their practices?

First of all, I havent even mentioned my personal opinion of Christianity on here at all. Sure, I dislike Christianity in and of itself. I don't agree with Paganism either. I don't agree with Judaism, and I don't agree with Islam or any religion for that matter, except George Carlin's son worshiping cult. If I let my beliefs (which are atheism) influence my opinion, I would be arguing that every religion the Romans ever had was bad for them and caused their downfall, and they would have never fallen if they were an atheist nation. Yet I am not saying anything of the kind.

@GeneralofCarthage
1. Yea talking sense doesn't make sense to you when you been talking bs for so long

2. I think you missed the point

3. You seem to defend and be fucking turtled up on this shit. .Like if somebody posts:" it helped the downfall of roman empire" you get a panic attack. Also you posting stuff like this: "There are still some Pagans out there."well.... What the fucking counter-argument is that.

4. What wiki tells you is the general picture most of the time, not something specific like this.

And also you should read Adrian Goldsworthys book not just read the description

and yes its wrong to convert people when you rape their family's and but sword to their neck tell them to convert

forcefully converting wastent the idea Jesus had. And also what are you, saying to others that their rituals are wrong. God did a human sacrifice in the old testament mind you..

No he doesn't, I read his books. He believes that Rome fell because of the constant civil wars that tore the Empire apart. I don't want to join this discussion because it'll never end, but I can mostly agree with Goldsworty. The empire fell because it had a flawed political structure. There were too many people that had the opportunity to seize power, and the Emperor couldn't be everywhere at once to constantly deal with rivals. This is the main reason why the Empire split btw.

Are you sure? I have to book next to me I could check for you if you want? he says that Christianity did contribute to fall of Rome, because of the turmoil it caused, persecutions, civil war, and it drove a wedge between common folk.

We aren't saying that Rome fell BECAUSE OF EVIL CHRISTIANITY we are arguing that it contributed to it. And general disagrees, for now

So do I. I'll admit that I have read his book on the Fall of Rome a few years ago already, so I might be missing something. I'm reading through it right now to check, but I don't remember him mentioning religion very often at all.
I'd argue that religion has very little do with it, though, if any. The political structure of the Empire was flawed, which, combined with the fact that the Empire was simply too large, caused its collapse.