Socialists and the fetish of welfare states.

Its silly that many leftists support using the bourgeois republic to help the working class. Its only through massive protest and civil disobedience that the capitalist state will throw a cool-downed version of what we ask. Let us STOP using the state as a welfare institution, let us build from the bottom up, join revolutionary unions and try to establish things like community plans for healthcare. This is going to do very little, which is why we need to do the normal protesty and general strikey stuff, but for fucking god stop fetishising the state as a institution that cares about the workers.

Out of context.

I'm having issues with logging in through Facebook, but here it goes: not all socialists are Marxists! I'm closer to Kropotkin ideologically than I am to Marx, for example, even though Marxian criticisms of capitalism are the best ones.

I am saying we should avoid using the state for welfare as much as possible, try to do things to help the working class outside of the state first.

I post stuff about socialism/anarchism in the leftist groups that I happen to be a member of. Also most of my friends on Facebook, know that I am an anarcho-communist. Personally I prefer forums to discuss this stuff with, rather than something that is a fun distraction at best.

because it takes so much to expand state welfare.

The only way for Communism to spread across the world is for everything to become Capitalist at first, for when the capitalist system spreads to every corner of the globe and the people awaken and see it for the lies and corruption and greed it truly is. THEN AND ONLY THEN will all workers unite (Not regional) and there will be a world wide communist revolution.

You are right on the point that a welfare state isnt a way of struggle, on the contrary the welfare state is a symptom of a hugely unequal society.

Nevertheless you forget why people need these things in the first place, because for a massive part of the population things like health care is hugely expensive and this while there is a small part of the population which owns a disproportionate part of the wealth. This premise makes the concept of a welfare state possible in the first place, but also necessary. Necessary because without it the conditions of the working class will break down, even with community plans for healthcare, simply because a major part of the wealth in the society is owned by this small group of people and not by the people who really need it, and these people cannot thus get their hands on it (without change off course).

I mean, its a good start to have these types of things, certainly because they can build up community ties. But I think it is quite an understatement of the conditions in which many people live to just say they need to form community health care groups.

I lol'ed. Really?! The whole world has to be capitalist at once before it becomes communist... So basically never, right?

Because the society has evolved since the 19th century? Your vote actually counts as much as the next guy's no matter how poor or rich you are. If you have a problem with the system you can vote to change it. Protests etc. should of course be allowed, but there is no reason to think it's the only way to change something.
The problem is that you can't just "build from the bottom up." You can't just destroy a system that has been in place for hundreds of years over night. And while you may not think it state welfare is actually positive.
Unless you get everybody(or the vast majority) onto the "community" bandwagon it's just not going to work...

Insofar as achieving communism goes, state welfare is pretty much the opposite of what you want.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Nordic model of state welfare.

State welfare isn't terrible. It is (at least to me) more of a feasible path then everyone stopping one day and saying "Hey, I think I'd like to help my fellow men at a non-imediate advantage to me or my family personally". People are naturally competitive and a state run welfare system does provide the best platform for humanity's natural attraction to competitive living to be directed in a fashion that would most benefit the working class. As is, communists only concern themselves with the working class, leaving many out in the cold.

Still your thoughts on the Nordic model?

I can't say I'm terribly familiar with their model, but my current understanding is that they are a socialist welfare state that provide good qualities of living for most of their people.

Same thing i've heard, everyone always quotes the Nordic countries as the best in the worlds ever.