That's not socialism. That's a mix of welfare and bureaucracy, a capitalistic society can exist in the exact same way.
I haven't worked out where I fit in the wider spectrum yet, but if I had to pick one of the two I'd say Socialism for sure. The natural order of things is for living beings to have free and fair use of their environment, but I wouldn't support a free-for-all on it because we'd destroy it. The logical solution then is to share our land and resources and make sure we all have enough. I find the idea that we can treat other people like they have no rights to their own world morally abhorrent. It's wrong to put a price tag on our environment and say people have to pay for the privilege of using it. Once you do that it's inevitable that some won't be able to afford it. To cut people off from their environment is to deliberately starve them of resources and that's nothing short of cruelty. The inevitable outcome is that those people are so desperate they're easy to exploit. They're unable to turn down the most degrading work and pay in order to survive. I'm not a big fan of central planning, but I'm smart enough to know that the free market isn't free. It can't be free if people are coerced by the threat of homelessness or starvation into participating. So what then? Well I'm not sure! That's something I haven't worked out yet. What about guaranteeing people a share of the land so they can build a home and grow their own food if need be? At least people would have the freedom to turn down degrading offers if they think supporting themselves is better. Or what about a citizen's wage? Something like the country paying everyone for it's use of their share (like rent). Income could be supplemented by working, whether that be for someone else or for themselves. Again, it would help to reduce coercion and exploitation. I don't begrudge people earning more if it's down to merit, but taking advantage of someone else's need? No way. It takes a sick mind to think that's a good idea, especially when that need is man-made. Our societies make people desperate deliberately, unfortunately. It used to be legal to buy other people outright. Today it's legal to cut people off and then pay them a pittance in return for their hard work, and all so they can buy back things they should already have a share of in the first place. I don't know where people get the idea they can do that to others. I guess they just have a sick sense of entitlement.
See, how can people say that socialism works better? Name one socialist country that has fundamentally worked. You can't, because every single socialist country has had a fundamental flaw in it's design. That flaw is normally the fact that the leader is a field day for a psychologist.
By socialist I assumed people meant communist, I suppose I was wrong in that assumption. Forgive me. Even though most socialist governments still have to use a bit of capitalism which I suppose corrupts your argument.
By socialist I assumed people meant communist, I suppose I was wrong in that assumption. Forgive me. Even though most socialist governments still have to use a bit of capitalism which I suppose corrupts your argument.[/quote:16detz41] the goverment controls the means of production so its socialist
I know, but when I commented I commented on communism. To be honest, my understanding of Swedish politics is minimal due to the fact I couldn't give a toss for Sweden, other than the fact that is where Tejb comes from.
And for future reference a lot of socialist (including myself) in America have been syndicalists. Not state-socialist or communist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism
Didnt the governement only heavily regulate the means of production in the scandinavian countries instead of completely controlling them.
Private enterprise is the backbone of all Scandinavian economies. There is a comparatively (to the US, anyways) large state sector, and extremely heavy regulation, but both of these are on the decline.
Sweden left the more Socialist Paradise because it kinda sucked for the most part. Finland isn't and wasn't very socialist, ever. Norway is only working because 1) They're like Sweden, and their culture accepts Socialism better than most and 2) They have a shit ton of oil in the North Sea.
All I gotta say is that we can't just jump in this discussion without thoroughly discussing what is Capitalism and what is Socialism, well, that is if you want to put the question in such black and white terms. I mean, if you're say a US libertarian you might regard the current US government as socialist while an anarcho-communist would see the Soviet Union as a capitalist entity. These two words, I'd say socialism more so, have really gone through the bullshit tumbler and can mean many different things to many different people. Personally, I don't wanna flounder in the stagnant waters that are the two false dichotomies of capitalism as a total free market and socialism as a highly centralized state economy.
Reposted from Fascism Thread - Thought it would be more appropriate here.) It is fairly obvious to me that Capitalism is indeed decaying into Fascism. Look at the Right-Wing supporters. They are increasingly becoming more, and more hate-filled. Over here, people call Asylum seekers 'Criminals', and the Coalition wants to physically shoot all Asylum-Seeking boats out of the water. In the US, they are extremely Jingoistic, and Imperialists. In the UK, they have physically banned, and made illegal homelessness. The world is increasingly becoming controlled by the Ruling class, and their corporations. Almost everything now is copyrighted, and small businesses are being flushed down the sink. Hundreds of thousands die in Africa each day, as a result of Western-Capitalist greed. The Working class, more and more are being subject to terrible living conditions, and violent, hate filled Propaganda. The Governments of the world are also scheming to ruin the work of that we have worked so hard to achieve in the last hundred years. Despite being completely recovered from the Recession, my country is scrapping, and privatizing the Social-System. Being classed as Disabled, this is particularly frightening to me. Especially since I am unable to work in my current state. I could go on and on, listing reasons as to how I think Capitalism is fast becoming Fascism. But, I will stop now. But in my opinion, the only cure for this disgusting, over-bloated disease, is Socialism and Communism.
How so? Nazi Germany had a Capitalist Economy, as did Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, and many of the Axis minors. In my head, Fascist describes a system of oppression, an extremist authoritarian state, generally fueled by racism/nationalism, where only a small minority, perhaps one person has absolute power. Fascism is also, may I remind you, a Far-Right ideology. Meaning that they are very close, ideologically, to our current Conservative, and Reactionary parties.
What you point to are the social policies (more or less) of fascism, economically fascism generally promotes some sort of state-controlled/corporatistic economical system. Fascists were also quite vocal in their opposition for capitalism, which is not suprising seeing that fascism theory was influenced by socialist/communist writings. In practice although some sort of privatised economy kept existing, but generally fascists had a pushed for the centralisation of the economy. Although it kinda depends on your definition of capitalism.
Welfare State =/= Socialism. @joske, did the workers or the capitalists control the government that controlled the economy? Yah, hitler used Socialist RHETORIC, but not socialist policys.
