The Saving American Democracy Amendment

Discussion in 'The Political/Current Events Coffee House' started by Tito, Dec 8, 2011.

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  1. Tito Well-Known Member

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    Warning that "American democracy in endangered," Sen. Bernie Sanders on Thursday proposed a constitutional amendment to overturn a Supreme Court ruling that allowed unrestricted and secret campaign spending by corporations on U.S. elections. The first constitutional amendment ever proposed by Sanders during his two decades in Congress would reverse the narrow 5-to-4 ruling in Citizens United vs. the Federal Elections Commission.

    What do you guys think about this?

    For more information, watch this speech:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=G9qZZVqSQdo
    Tito, Dec 8, 2011
    #1

  2. Chelsea366 Retired Moderator

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    I'm not watching that vid but this sounds like a good thing and I hope it passes. Much unlike most of the bills we have been talking about recently.
    Chelsea366, Dec 8, 2011
    #2

  3. MayorEmanuel Do not weep, for salvation is coming.

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    Of course not nobody wants to sit around and talk about how great things are.
    MayorEmanuel, Dec 9, 2011
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  4. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    Depending on the actual text of the amendment I support it. I disagree with Citizens United, but until I actually read what he's proposing I can't pledge my allegiance
    pedro3131, Dec 9, 2011
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  5. Tito Well-Known Member

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    Damn you and your logical skepticism.
    Tito, Dec 9, 2011
    #5
    slydessertfox likes this.

  6. Viking Socrates I am Mad Scientist

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    Viking Socrates, Dec 9, 2011
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  7. LeonTrotsky Well-Known Member

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    You can find all of that info here ------> http://www.opensecrets.org/
    LeonTrotsky, Dec 9, 2011
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  8. Viking Socrates I am Mad Scientist

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    Viking Socrates, Dec 9, 2011
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  9. LeonTrotsky Well-Known Member

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    Not about the Amendment, about all the stuff the Amendment wants to do. It basically makes the Amendment look stupid.
    For example: American Crystal Sugar
    Here is who they donated to and how much they gave in the election cycle so far:
    House
    Total to Democrats: $482,000
    Total to Republicans: $401,500



    Ackerman, Gary (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Aderholt, Robert B (R-AL)
    $5,000
    Alexander, Rodney (R-LA)
    $10,000
    Barrow, John (D-GA)
    $5,000
    Bishop, Sanford D Jr (D-GA)
    $5,000
    Bishop, Timothy H (D-NY)
    $10,000
    Bonner, Jo (R-AL)
    $5,000
    Boren, Dan (D-OK)
    $10,000
    Boswell, Leonard L (D-IA)
    $10,000
    Boustany, Charles W Jr (R-LA)
    $5,000
    Braley, Bruce (D-IA)
    $5,000
    Buchanan, Vernon (R-FL)
    $5,000
    Calvert, Ken (R-CA)
    $5,000
    Camp, Dave (R-MI)
    $10,000
    Canseco, Francisco (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Carson, Andre (D-IN)
    $5,000
    Cassidy, Bill (R-LA)
    $5,000
    Chandler, Ben (D-KY)
    $5,000
    Clyburn, James E (D-SC)
    $5,000
    Coffman, Mike (R-CO)
    $5,000
    Cohen, Stephen Ira (D-TN)
    $5,000
    Conaway, Mike (R-TX)
    $10,000
    Connolly, Gerry (D-VA)
    $10,000
    Conyers, John Jr (D-MI)
    $5,000
    Costa, Jim (D-CA)
    $7,000
    Cotton, Thomas (R-AR)
    $5,000
    Courtney, Joe (D-CT)
    $5,000
    Crawford, Rick (R-AR)
    $5,000
    Critz, Mark (D-PA)
    $15,000
    Cuellar, Henry (D-TX)
    $5,000
    Davis, Geoff (R-KY)
    $5,000
    DeFazio, Peter (D-OR)
    $5,000
    DeLauro, Rosa L (D-CT)
    $10,000
    Desjarlais, Scott Eugene (R-TN)
    $5,000
    Ellison, Keith (D-MN)
    $5,000
    Ellmers, Renee (R-NC)
    $5,000
    Farenthold, Blake (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Farr, Sam (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Filner, Bob (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Fincher, Steve (R-TN)
    $5,000
    Foxx, Virginia (R-NC)
    $5,000
    Fudge, Marcia L (D-OH)
    $5,000
    Gardner, Cory (R-CO)
    $5,000
    Gibbs, Bob (R-OH)
    $5,000
    Gibson, Chris (R-NY)
    $5,000
    Giffords, Gabrielle (D-AZ)
    $10,000
    Granger, Kay (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Graves, Sam (R-MO)
    $7,500
    Guthrie, Steven Brett (R-KY)
    $10,000
    Hartzler, Vicky (R-MO)
    $5,000
    Hastings, Alcee L (D-FL)
    $5,000
    Hinchey, Maurice (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Hinojosa, Ruben (D-TX)
    $5,000
    Holden, Tim (D-PA)
    $10,000
    Hoyer, Steny H (D-MD)
    $5,000
    Huelskamp, Tim (R-KS)
    $5,000
    Huffman, Jared (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Hultgren, Randy (R-IL)
    $5,000
    Jones, Walter B Jr (R-NC)
    $5,000
    Kaptur, Marcy (D-OH)
    $10,000
    Keating, William R (D-MA)
    $5,000
    Kildee, Dale E (D-MI)
    $5,000
    Kinzinger, Adam (R-IL)
    $5,000
    Kissell, Larry (D-NC)
    $10,000
    Kline, John (R-MN)
    $5,000
    Labrador, Raul (R-ID)
    $5,000
    Lamborn, Douglas L (R-CO)
    $5,000
    Landry, Jeffrey M (R-LA)
    $5,000
    Larsen, Rick (D-WA)
    $5,000
    Larson, John B (D-CT)
    $5,000
    Latham, Tom (R-IA)
    $5,000
    Levin, Sander (D-MI)
    $10,000
    Loebsack, David (D-IA)
    $5,000
    Long, Billy (R-MO)
    $5,000
    Lucas, Frank D (R-OK)
    $10,000
    Lujan, Ben R (D-NM)
    $5,000
    Lummis, Cynthia Marie (R-WY)
    $5,000
    Maloney, Carolyn B (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Matheson, Jim (D-UT)
    $5,000
    Matsui, Doris O (D-CA)
    $5,000
    McCaul, Michael (R-TX)
    $5,000
    McCollum, Betty (D-MN)
    $5,000
    McIntyre, Mike (D-NC)
    $5,000
    McNerney, Jerry (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Mica, John L (R-FL)
    $10,000
    Michaud, Mike (D-ME)
    $10,000
    Miller, Candice S (R-MI)
    $5,000
    Miller, Jeff (R-FL)
    $5,000
    Napolitano, Grace (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Neugebauer, Randy (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Noem, Kristi Lynn (R-SD)
    $10,000
    Nunnelee, Alan (R-MS)
    $5,000
    Olver, John W (D-MA)
    $5,000
    Owens, Bill (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Palazzo, Steven (R-MS)
    $5,000
    Pastor, Ed (D-AZ)
    $5,000
    Paulsen, Erik (R-MN)
    $9,000
    Perlmutter, Edwin G (D-CO)
    $5,000
    Peterson, Collin C (D-MN)
    $10,000
    Poe, Ted (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Rahall, Nick (D-WV)
    $5,000
    Renacci, James B (R-OH)
    $5,000
    Reyes, Silvestre (D-TX)
    $5,000
    Ribble, Reid (R-WI)
    $5,000
    Roby, Martha (R-AL)
    $5,000
    Rogers, Mike (R-MI)
    $10,000
    Rogers, Mike D (R-AL)
    $10,000
    Rooney, Tom (R-FL)
    $10,000
    Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana (R-FL)
    $5,000
    Ross, Dennis (R-FL)
    $5,000
    Rothman, Steven R (D-NJ)
    $5,000
    Runyan, Jon (R-NJ)
    $5,000
    Ryan, Tim (D-OH)
    $5,000
    Sanchez, Linda (D-CA)
    $10,000
    Sanchez, Loretta (D-CA)
    $10,000
    Schilling, Bobby (R-IL)
    $5,000
    Schock, Aaron (R-IL)
    $10,000
    Schrader, Kurt (D-OR)
    $5,000
    Schultz, Debbie Wasserman (D-FL)
    $10,000
    Scott, Austin (R-GA)
    $5,000
    Sewell, Terri (D-AL)
    $5,000
    Sherman, Brad (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Shimkus, John M (R-IL)
    $5,000
    Simpson, Mike (R-ID)
    $5,000
    Sires, Albio (D-NJ)
    $5,000
    Slaughter, Louise M (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Southerland, Steve (R-FL)
    $5,000
    Stutzman, Marlin A (R-IN)
    $5,000
    Sutton, Betty Sue (D-OH)
    $5,000
    Thompson, Bennie G (D-MS)
    $10,000
    Thompson, Glenn (R-PA)
    $5,000
    Thornberry, Mac (R-TX)
    $5,000
    Tipton, Scott (R-CO)
    $5,000
    Tonko, Paul (D-NY)
    $10,000
    Towns, Edolphus (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Velazquez, Nydia M (D-NY)
    $5,000
    Visclosky, Pete (D-IN)
    $5,000
    Walden, Greg (R-OR)
    $5,000
    Walz, Timothy J (D-MN)
    $10,000
    Welch, Peter (D-VT)
    $10,000
    Wilson, Frederica S (D-FL)
    $5,000
    Woolsey, Lynn (D-CA)
    $5,000
    Yarmuth, John A (D-KY)
    $5,000

    Senate
    Total to Democrats: $46,000
    Total to Republicans: $42,000



    Akin, Todd (R-MO)
    $10,000
    Berg, Richard A (R-ND)
    $10,000
    Blunt, Roy (R-MO)
    $5,000
    Casey, Bob (D-PA)
    $5,000
    Donnelly, Joe (D-IN)
    $5,000
    Hirono, Mazie K (D-HI)
    $5,000
    Hoeven, John (R-ND)
    $5,000
    McCaskill, Claire (D-MO)
    $8,000
    Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
    $10,000
    Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
    $3,000
    Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
    $5,000
    Stabenow, Debbie (D-MI)
    $5,000
    Thune, John (R-SD)
    $2,000
    Whitehouse, Sheldon (D-RI)
    $5,000
    Wicker, Roger (R-MS)
    $5,000

    Here's a list of specific donors to American Crystal Sugar"

    Contrib

    Occupation

    Date

    Amount
    WALD, THOMAS
    EAST GRAND FORKS, MN 56721
    SELF/FARMER
    01/28/11
    $5,000
    HONG, CURTIS
    BUXTON, ND 58218
    SELF/FARMER
    02/17/11
    $5,000
    HONG, CHRISTOPHER
    BUXTON, ND 58218
    SELF/FARMER
    02/17/11
    $5,000
    HONG, SCOTT
    BUXTON, ND 58218
    SELF/FARMER
    02/17/11
    $5,000
    PETERSON, DEAN L
    WARREN, MN 56762
    SELF/FARMER
    02/25/11
    $5,000
    PETERSON, DWIGHT W
    WARREN, MN 56762
    SELF/FARMER
    02/25/11
    $5,000
    SKAURUD, KATHLEEN
    GARY, MN 56545
    SELF/FARMER
    03/16/11
    $5,000
    SKAURUD, PERRY
    GARY, MN 56545
    SELF/FARMER
    03/16/11
    $5,000
    SCZEPANSKI, WILLIAM
    STEPHEN, MN 56757
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    WARNER, DARRELL J
    PEMBINA, ND 58271
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    ROSENFELDT, DANIEL
    MOORHEAD, MN 56560
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    KUEHL, DALE
    GLYNDON, MN 56547
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    DIPPLE, DENNIS
    GRAFTON, ND 58237
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    GUDAJTES, JAY M
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    GUDAJTES, LEE D
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    GUDAJTES, JOHN
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    KUEHL, WAYNE
    GLYNDON, MN 56547
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    WARNER, GARY D
    PEMBINA, ND 58271
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $5,000
    ROGENES, AARON
    BUXTON, ND 58218
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $4,731
    SWANSON, BART
    HOOPLE, ND 58243
    SELF/FARMER
    03/04/11
    $4,543
    BALDWIN, WILLIAM R JR
    ST THOMAS, ND 58276
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $4,362
    CHWIALKOWSKI, JEFFREY
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    08/17/11
    $4,323
    SCHUMACHER, PETER
    REYNOLDS, ND 58275
    SELF/FARMER
    03/04/11
    $4,264
    GASPER, MICHAEL
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $4,098
    OMLID, ANDREW J
    THOMPSON, ND 58278
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $4,096
    GOODWIN, STEVEN M
    ANGUS, MN 56712
    SELF/FARMER
    08/12/11
    $4,088
    STOLTMAN, MARK
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    08/17/11
    $4,000
    STOLTMAN, PRESTON
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    08/17/11
    $4,000
    BOYCHUK, ROBERT S
    HALLOCK, MN 56728
    SELF/FARMER
    04/15/11
    $4,000
    PYLE, ROBERT J
    CASSELTON, ND 58012
    SELF/FARMER
    02/25/11
    $4,000
    STOLTMAN, GAYLE
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    08/17/11
    $3,983
    KENNELLY, TOM J
    ST. THOMAS, ND 58276
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $3,844
    MEYER, DAVID S
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $3,732
    CARLSON, DEAN
    KENNEDY, MN 56733
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $3,672
    REITMEIER, JAMES
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    04/29/11
    $3,400
    WAGNER, WAYNE A
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $3,400
    OSOWSKI, LEE H
    GRAFTON, ND 58237
    SELF/FARMER
    02/17/11
    $3,380
    PROSSER, MARK S
    HALMA, AZ 56729
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $3,256
    GROVE, HARLOW K
    CLIMAX, MN 56523
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $3,152
    ANDRINGA, DONALD S
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $3,024
    HAUGO, ALLAN
    WAUBUN, MN 56589
    SELF/FARMER
    03/16/11
    $3,022
    KUSTER, LOREN
    REYNOLDS, ND 58275
    SELF/FARMER
    03/04/11
    $3,020
    TIEDEMANN, GENE R
    EUCLID, MN 56722
    SELF/FARMER
    02/04/11
    $3,000
    GUDAJTES, SUSAN
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $3,000
    REITMEIER, LEROY
    CROOKSTON, MN 56716
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $3,000
    CHANDLER, DOUGLAS A
    NIELSVILLE, MN 56568
    SELF/FARMER
    10/07/11
    $2,948
    JACOBSON, COREY A
    ADA, MN 56510
    SELF/FARMER
    03/24/11
    $2,940
    VIVATSON, ROBERT
    CAVALIER, ND 58220
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,877
    VIVATSON, RICK
    HENSEL, ND 58241
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,877
    JONES, CRAIG
    OSLO, MN 56744
    SELF/FARMER
    01/21/11
    $2,824
    KROGSTAD, KENT A
    HATTON, ND 58240
    SELF/FARMER
    03/04/11
    $2,806
    LANGEN, DAVID
    KENNEDY, MN 56733
    SELF/FARMER
    04/01/11
    $2,800
    NARLOCH, BRADLEY
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    01/07/11
    $2,772
    TANG, RONNIE L
    FELTON, MN 56536
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,744
    KASPRICK, BRIAN
    ANGUS, MN 56712
    SELF/FARMER
    02/17/11
    $2,720
    BATEMAN, WILLIAM BEAU
    GRAND FORKS, ND 58201
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $2,700
    STADSTAD, WADE T
    GRAND FORKS, ND 58203
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,608
    HAUGEN, CURTIS E
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    03/24/11
    $2,520
    HAUGEN, DAVID
    ARGYLE, MN 56713
    SELF/FARMER
    03/24/11
    $2,518
    SWEENEY, ROBERT P
    MANVEL, ND 58256
    SELF/FARMER
    03/24/11
    $2,500
    TORGERSON, WAYNE T
    WARREN, MN 56762
    SELF/FARMER
    03/16/11
    $2,500
    WURDEN, JON
    FISHER, MN 56723
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,496
    WILLIAMS, STEVE
    FISHER, MN 56723
    SELF/FARMER
    03/16/11
    $2,480
    BORGEN, WENDY
    GEORGETOWN, ND 56546
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,472
    SONDREAL, KEVIN
    REYNOLDS, ND 58275
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,461
    WHELAN, GEORGE
    CRYSTAL, ND 58222
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,456
    RUDNIK, FELIX
    MINTO, ND 58261
    SELF/FARMER
    04/11/11
    $2,424
    JENSEN, BRIAN
    STEPHEN, MN 56757
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,420
    NELSON, CHARLES B
    THOMPSON, ND 58278
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,400
    ERICKSON, KELLY
    HALLOCK, MN 56728
    SELF/FARMER
    03/31/11
    $2,400
    LeonTrotsky, Dec 9, 2011
    #9

  10. 0bserver92 Grand King of Moderation

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    For love of god use spoilers!
    0bserver92, Dec 9, 2011
    #10

  11. Kalalification Guest

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    Here's the actual amendment, for those interested:

    So I think it's a good idea, and it's worded pretty bluntly, but I question the use of the phrase "The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States are the rights of natural persons and do not extend to for-profit corporations..." Putting in that the only rights protected are those of "natural persons" seems entirely unnecessary and could only cause trouble down the road. It's not hard to imagine in the very near term (10-20 years) that we're going to be dealing with non-natural persons, and in particular I'm thinking of AIs. Even now, you could definitely make the argument that IVF babies aren't entirely natural persons.

    The 14th Amendment allows for the possibility of non-natural persons to receive equal rights so long as they are naturalized citizens:
    I can't help but think that including this entirely superfluous phrase will cause us nothing but trouble down the road. I understand why they think it's necessary to clarify it, but frankly we can clarify what doesn't constitute a person whose rights must be protected by the government, and leave who does for the 14th Amendment. Would it really do harm to simply leave out that part and say, "The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States do not extend to for-profit corporations, limited liability companies, or other private entities established for business purposes or to promote business interests under the laws of any state, the United States, or any foreign state." Methinks not.

    Obviously, though, I agree with the spirit of the amendment and would rather see it added than not.
    Kalalification, Dec 10, 2011
    #11
    Tito, Chelsea366 and slydessertfox like this.

  12. Demondaze Xenos Scum

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    AIs and politics Kali?
    Demondaze, Dec 10, 2011
    #12

  13. LeonTrotsky Well-Known Member

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    I like the Amendment, but I would rather it severely limit business expenditures rather then cut them out all together. Also, does the Amendment include unions and the like?
    Edit: by "The Like" I mean other organizations besides corporations that pay millions into the elections.
    LeonTrotsky, Dec 10, 2011
    #13

  14. 0bserver92 Grand King of Moderation

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    From the FAQ I read while tired no it doesn't include unions as they are representatives of the people not corporations.
    0bserver92, Dec 10, 2011
    #14

  15. LeonTrotsky Well-Known Member

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    It should include unions, because the are not representatives of the people, the are representatives of their members, and their members alone.
    LeonTrotsky, Dec 10, 2011
    #15

  16. Kalalification Guest

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    It does include unions. It says so specifically in the FAQ. It doesn't matter who you represent (or are perceived to), it matters what manner of organization you are.

    EDIT: And yes, Demon, I think it's an issue we need to consider, especially with something as major as a Constitutional amendment.
    Kalalification, Dec 10, 2011
    #16

  17. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    2 things, the 2nd and 3rd section seem to be at odds with one another, because in the 2nd it says they can't donate, and in the 3rd it says that congress can regulate their donations. While I agree with the spirit, I still think that corporations should be allowed to donate, just perhaps at the same rate as individuals. Also, as it stands this amendment wouldn't really do much because it affirms the right of the super PAC's (watch colberts segments in the past 6 months about them) so there still wouldn't be any hard limit on contributions
    pedro3131, Dec 10, 2011
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  18. Kalalification Guest

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    2 doesn't actually do anything but say "we have the power to do this." I think you mean between 3 and 4, but 3 is talking about the types of organizations mentioned in section 1, while 4 is speaking much more generally about campaign finance and doesn't specify what kind of actions are permitted.

    EDIT: Also, corporations can donate. 501c(3)s (i.e. churches and non-profits) can donate. For-profits are the ones barred from donation.
    Kalalification, Dec 10, 2011
    #18

  19. Viking Socrates I am Mad Scientist

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    But should corporations be allowed to donate as much as they want anonymously and are they people or not? (According to rulings by the supreme court they are) Damn you 14th amendment.

    I agree with the bill, though i doubt it will get passed.
    Viking Socrates, Dec 10, 2011
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  20. Kalalification Guest

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    Corporations are very clearly not people, which is why everyone is pissed at the Citizens United ruling. Corporations exist to spread liability among a bunch of different people, and to act as an individual on behalf of those honkies. But they aren't people by any stretch of the word.
    Kalalification, Dec 10, 2011
    #20
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