Ancient History

The Hellenic model, the SPQR was only used as a model once.

Well, then I wouldn't know much about it, all I know is that it wasn't as aristocratic as the SPQR was.

What was the Hellenic model? How'd it work?

QUE!1?!

Only the rich could vote landowners and military men could vote... Even in athens there was no representation.

shows how much I know about it, lol

Hey could somebody enlighten me? Because I have been thinking. Were on earth did the Romans get their manpower during the second Punic war, if you had to have land to serve in the army (pre-marian reforms)? @slydessertfox

First, they didn't need to have land, you needed a certain amount of money and not be a slave, second the soldiers had to buy their equipment, then they were enlisted either into a Hastati or into the Leves if they weren't rich enough. Also the romans relied heavily on allied troops and the auxilia usually made more than half of a roman army. So by that, you can assume that to become a soldier in the roman army, it wasn't that hard, there were no true warriors in the roman army apart from the battle-hardened Principes and Triarii. Carthage on the other hand didn't have a military tradition like the romans, so Hannibal relied heavily on mercenaries and the such.
So basically, the romans had a better organized recruitment system, unlike the carthaginians who had to rely on citizen militia if they didn't have the mercenaries to fight for them.
The problem wasn't as people say, 'infinite' manpower supply from the romans, but more like, a limited supply of manpower to the carthaginians, adding to that Italy was already pretty well populated at the time.

The true "roman" soldiery had to have land, other wise they couldn't serve. marian reforms chanced that.

Requirements become a Roman soldier in the service of the Republic

He had to be a member of the fifth census class or higher.
He had to own property worth 3,500 sesterces in value.
He had to supply his own armaments.

Or do you meant they didn't have to, during the second Punic war? "Under crisis" and all that.

Oh okay I thought you were saying it the complete opposite way, but yes.

Actually, if I recall correctly, the only class of soldiers in the Roman army that had land as a rule, were Equites, the Hastati were usually too poor to own land. But here's an interesting site to see, although it doesn't show the requirements to become a Hastati : http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

Here's a paragraph regarding your question: "At the outset of the Second Punic War, the historian Polybius tells us in his formula togatorum, Rome possessed the largest and finest army of the Mediterranean. Six legions made up of 32'000 men and 1600 cavalry, together with 30'000 allied infantry and 2'000 allied cavalry. And this was merely the standing army. If Rome called on all her Italian allies she had another 340'000 infantry and 37'000 cavalry."

So basically, their standing army was pretty big already and as it says, they had lots of reserves (Rome's allies).

Well, I mean Rome was a pretty large city at the time not to mention allied city-states in Italy. Rome, I think at the time might have had about 250,000-500,000 people living in it (large for that time). They only really lost around 125,000 men.

So it is definately possible to raise those armies. Not to mention the army at Cannae was pretty inexperienced. Plus the survivors were probably integrated into Scipio's army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Trasimene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trebia

At least from the book I have read say they had own land and so did Dan carlin or perhaps that's the way the standing army worked during peace time and during crises they called upon all of the free men of Rome. (pre-marian I mean)

this is from wikipedia: "hastati contained the younger men rather than just the poorer, though most men of their age were relatively poor."

So to sum up, I know that Equites and triarius had to own land I am not sure if Principes and hastati did. Because if they didn't why the fuck did Rome suffer from manpower shortage in 100BC? That's why Gracchi brothers tried to pass land reform laws, because roman army didn't have enough men co's all the rich had bought all the land. And that's why marius came in and said:"I don't care that the law is that you have to own land, I don't care that law has always been that way. I am here, if you want to join do it now, if you do, you'll get rich co's I am such a good general"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capite_censi

"Gaius Marius, as part of the Marian Reforms of 105 BC, allowed these non-land-owning Romans to enlist in the Roman legions.For the first time, men no longer had to own property to fight for Rome."

Also:
Because many (smaller) landowners were in wars, much of the land was bought by the rich fat cats of Rome.
The large landowners used slaves ---> creating unemployment.

I'd say that it wasn't his skills that kept the empire together, but his charecter.

Carthage was a very strange sort of Republic :/.


Well I am confused myself with the issue of land ownership, after reading Osprey's Roman Republican Legionary 298-105 BC. Well then I guess reading my other books will fix this problem.

I remember hearing from one reference, that Roma would rather raise more levies this time from their slaves than submit to Hannibal. Heh

All I got is a PDF file of the supposed "Athenian Constitution". Written by Aristotle but translated to English by Sir Frederic G Kenyon. I haven't read all of the parts yet but I believe it could help.