The point is that I lack a belief in a god, I don't care what you call that. Especially when I agree with Sam Harris when he said: “In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.” -Sam Harris
That sounds disturbingly like anti-theism. I despise apologetics, and I reserve a special place in my heart for the hatred I have of semantics, so having to argue in both of those arenas is most certainly unpleasant. But I cannot sit back and allow atheists to assume they have the intellectual high ground. Fact is that we're all equally free to think whatever we want, and that no amount of discussion can ever change the total uncertainty we face in regards to matters beyond the natural world.
Let's not debate whether or not there is a god then, that debate actually rather bores me, you can believe in a god for all I care. I'm more interested in your religious beliefs. What exactly do you believe and why? I apologize if you already answered this, I wasn't previously reading this thread.
After reading your post a couple of times over I honestly can’t find anything worth debating. Your beliefs are just so... uninteresting... Any fundamentalist creationists types here? Now they are fun to “debate”.
yes but does the evidnce have to realy say is or if not god is real, im am a christian and i dont think it matters cause if there is a god (which i belive there is) why would he have to be justifed by human science?
Hehehehe, I probably have the most boring beliefs possible - but they don't seem to get much debate, so i'm gonna put them all over this thread anyway. There was a time when i'd have called myself an athiest, which isn't surprising given that I came up with a tirade against Father Christmas at the age of four, but anyway; as a history student, i'm supposed to look at both sides of any argument. Although it's more fun (and ultimately better academic practice) to actually have an opinion, i'd probably call myself agnostic now, because although we can't prove a god (or gods) exists, science (or anything else) can't disprove it entirely either. At the risk of sounding like a libertarian w***er, I suppose you just have to live in a way you believe to be right, and if it turns out there is a god when you die, then he/it will judge you fairly (at least you'd bloody hope so), and if there isn't, then at least you did some good. So I guess that this is yet another debate that will go on forever (forever being another debate in itself :geek: )
I am secular. Not that I am in any way against religion, I am of the opposite position. Being somewhat of an amateur theologian (proper scholar) I have studied Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Shinto, and a few polytheistic religions. The more I learn the more I am bemused, and instead of joining any religion that would place me in a constant state of confusion I am being happily left to my own devices. That and my healthy issue with unseen authority figures.
I myself am a Christian (Lutheran, probably the most catholic-like protestant denomination). I began to open my mind and refine my ideas after becoming a fan of the progressive metal band Tool, who often seek to open the minds of their listeners. In my experiences arguments with people of different spiritual beliefs (including atheism) never yielded any result, positive or negative. For example, I joined a facebook group to protest the demotion of Pluto as a planet but almost all of the conversation topics were about attacking religion (mostly Christianity). In one topic 5 atheists were arguing with one girl on the subject and she only spoke in faith arguments. I came in and told her it was going to be a waste of time (that much manifested itself) but ended up getting myself drawn in the argument and had to counter what all of them had to say and they were actually able to have casual conversation amongst each other just because making responses took so long. These days I've put a lot of importance on being a peacemaker and I probably succeeded. Oddly enough to my expectations abortion hasn't been mentioned. Born a Republican, parented by Democrats, turned into a socialist and then into a libertarian I've had mixed feelings on the issue.
Most Atheists don't listen. It is impossible to prove God so they don't believe in it but if you proved the existence of God then no one would believe, instead they would just know
What would be wrong with humanity just knowing that God exists? Why does God need to be mysterious? Why does he require blind faith? My biggest problem with Christianity is with one of it’s central tenants. The idea that God would need his son to be tortured and killed in order to forgive humanity. Why would God need his son to be a sacrificial scapegoat for the sins of others? Why would a god require ritual killing for anything? If God wanted to forgive humanity why didn’t he simply forgive them?
I know right and people saying you will rot in hell just because you're an atheist is so scarring that you want to forget everything you stood for. God believers are so cruel. Its my belief and that's yous and that's that.
If he is omni-benevolent, then why is there evil? Just to "test" our faith? I dont think hunger and war is exactly loving. "Hey, happy birthday! Here, have some AIDS. Wait, thats not everything. Ill shoot you in the leg aswell." :roll: If he is omniscient, why did he create the Devil in the first place? Just to troll humans? So he could have something to do?[/quote:2x3f4ckd] Would a perfect world not be Heaven? There is more to life than perfection and happiness. To spend one's whole exsistance in Heavenly bliss is to spend one's whole exsistance ignorant. When we reach that Heaven or Hell perhaps we will understand more. Until then though, we can only speculate.
There is nothing wrong with knowing of God's exsistance. Which is why he sent his Son, or more rather himself in his Son, to preech just that. He does not need to be mysterious. We make him out to be. He does not, there is a Bible full of exactly what he wishes us to know (lessons or historical events, depending on your point of view) and full of documentation of several proven things, such as the exsistance of Jesus. (To anyone reading this, don't try to say Jesus never exsisted. There are more sources saying Jesus exsisted then there are saying Alexander the Great exsisted.) Jesus was the prophet of Christianity. He died on the cross not nessisarilly to "forgive us of sin" but to rise from the Dead and thus ensure that Christianity would not die out.
Ah, but the question is then what is the default belief? The default as far as I am concerned is disbelief. When your friend tells you "I am really a reptilian from the planet x!", What do you say? You say hes lieing and you demand evidence.[/quote:3s329sb0] "Well then, I demand evidence that the Universe is really made up of little balls known as, 'Atoms'. Look around you, do you see little balls! Certainly not." In reality, there is little difference between our religious beliefs and the scientific beliefs of the world. You can't hope to find a proton simply by asking it to prove its exsistance, now can you.
If you aren't willing to debate then don't be surprised when your arguments come across as fallacious and hollow. You say there can't be an alternative. I say there can because I open minded and have several alternatives listed in my earlier arguments. I will re-quote my conundrum which was put together by Epicurus. 1. God exists. 2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good. 3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils. 4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence. 5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence. 6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil. 7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists. 8. Evil exists (logical contradiction). Contradict this logical argument and I will entertain the idea of a benevolent God. If you do not, then I cannot prove the absence of evidence to be the truth, (i.e. the nonexistence of a deity), but I can prove that if he does exist he is either not omnipotent or he is not omnibenevolent. And to say that we should not question the status quo leads me to question your intelligence; Are you really interested in the truth? Or are you just another sheep?[/quote:lkoixwcm] If God himself created all, and is above all, then perhaps he is simply wise enough not to elimate all evils. It could be somewhat like the Buddhists believe. Moderation over all good or all evil. A weight for a weight.
What I don't get though, is why when we try to disprove religion we always target Christianity? Why don't you guys all go after Zioism is Buddhism, or even Islam or something. And another thing, if your an Athiest, and you've convinced yourself Christianity is false, you still have yet to disprove religion. Have you forgotten that there are dozens of other religions that you have yet to even consider?
Given we're all technicly part of the same "child grouping" in his children and we've almost wiped ourselves out... I don't think I'd exactly want us being within swinging distance of our brothers and sisters either. Maybe we're in like a time-out ever since Adam and Eve.
