Socialists and the fetish of welfare states.

Unemployment is the base of the underclass as long as we dont end unemployment we wont eliminate the underclass.

Dude we already have the technology to viably eliminate alot of manual labour, the point is that it isnt profitable enough for the financial elites. You saw the same process occur during the industrial revolution where putting out systems of production and artisanal production continued long into the 19th century even in the most industrialised areas of Western Europe simply because the economic elites didnt want to spend their money on factories.

ps: who says that capitalists will even let a post-scarcity happen? Seeing the entire copyright restriction stuff being pushed through at the moment, I'd think that in 20 years we will see arrests being made for the illegal printing of ikea furniture.

You know all the jobs available are not manufacturing jobs right?

Kali, I include most people in "working class", almost all of us base the vast majority of our income on a wage or modest salary.

This is were post-scarcity comes into play.

Automation (Or "self-service" in the case of the service industry.) covers more than just manufacturing.

You'll that the act of automating the workers is quite a radical internal change within the capitalist system. In fact, I wouldn't even call it capitalism. More like some crazy transition phase.

Working class is based off income,wage, salary and all that nice stuff. I need to find what the cut off is from working to middle (I think 45,000)

Though most would add in all the other classes below High middle and Rich. So pretty much anyone making under 100,000 a year. But also at the same token does not the rich work? (Well except Paris Hilton, she got lucky)

On another note, Rich people+Communism=??????????

No working class in the Marxian sense is one who sells his labor in exchange for a salary or wage.

executives primarly get income from bonus's, its a fine line to cross. To be honest, I'm starting to read more Bakunin and I am becoming disillusioned with LTV and other Marxist concepts.

I said primarily relay on bonus's, a xmas bonus is nothing major.

Yeah technically ceo's are working class, although almost always people in management own shares in the company they work in so the line is quite thin. There is also an intelectual movement who qualifies these people into a third class, called the coordinator class. But in essence you just need to let your common sense prevail over theoretical analysis and then its not hard to come to the conclusion that these people have little in common with the working class.

I think what it shows is that class is a tertiary or even quaternary social element, not a primary or secondary one. Labor itself is only of minimal social importance. Marxists place way too much emphasis on their imaginary boundaries between people.

Any time someone asks you to abandon logic and stick with "common sense" they don't have a good argument.

Yeah sure, class can be overdone a bit, just out of intrest what is according to you primary or secondary social elements?

It is logic to be able to adapt your argument to local conditions, traditions, general situations e.g. the common sense part, otherwise you get retarded universalism which breeds totalitarianism.

ps: you didnt answer my post on the top of the page

I'm also intrigued, can someone explain me this "theory"? If this robots do all the work, what will do the "common" people for living? Maintenance of said robots? And let's say that we are at that post-scarcity time, what people should do? Philosophize and take the humanity to a higher level? Because I know a lot of people who will just sit all the day watching TV.