The First World War

Discussion in 'Historical Events Coffee House' started by totalwar, Feb 28, 2012.

?

who really won the first world war? The Axis or the Allies?

Axis 13 vote(s) 19.7%
Allies 45 vote(s) 68.2%
The Jews!!! 15 vote(s) 22.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Achtung Kommunisten! Well-Known Member

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    I think Kalalification just made me and FascistPatriot jizz in our grey jackbooted pants.
    Except I don't share his love of America
    Achtung Kommunisten!, Apr 9, 2012
    #81

  2. Toast Well-Known Member

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    That's the most American statement I've ever heard. Are you high?
    Toast, Apr 9, 2012
    #82

  3. The Shaw Rawnald Gregory Erickson the Second

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    *Looks at poll*
    trololol
    The Shaw, Apr 9, 2012
    #83

  4. Toast Well-Known Member

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    Nigga, you high.
    Toast, Apr 9, 2012
    #84

  5. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    This argument has as much truth to it as it has faults.

    1. Japan is still fighting Chinese, The common wealth and other allies. Would it be in their best interest to start a war with a nation, they are at peace, while fighting a handful other wars? I'd say no.

    2. Italy did contribute to invasion of USSR, roughly half a million men from top of my head

    3. You're completely right about negative effects not impacting Axis, that is unless UK gets stick from their asses and does something.

    4. You are dead wrong on Lend- lease and this is actually what I disagree with you the most. Lend- lease was only 6% of Soviets war effort. I would also have backing of Hubert Tuyil, author of Feeding the Bear: American aid to the Soviet Union in 1941-1945 in which he states:
    I have professor to support my argument, you do not thus far.

    5. Lend- Lease did not affect battle of Moscow in any notable way.

    6. The very note of USSR losing without American intervention is absurd.

    You're over blowing the importance of Lend Lease and insisting that it was critical. It did save allot of lives, but war would have been won without it as it barely impact on Soviet war effort (6%).

    Where you're making perfectly legit case is American intervention in actual combat. Though I have no doubt in my mind that USSR would have won in the end, it would be in much longer time period. You should note that I may not give credit to allied air raids it deserves, so you should factor that in. But when I look at situation in spring 44, there is no way Axis are going to emerge victorious.

    In summary: Your Lend lease claims are bullshit. American intervention argument is strong, but not decisive.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #85
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  6. Da Julii Member

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    Okay this may be true but I have a few questions because I dont know this. Can you tell me how much of the USSR's supplys was produced in the USSR how much was imported and which countries it was imported from?
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #86

  7. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    After countless arguments on this subject, that is refreshing question. I do not have numbers or anything, but considering USSR had no allies outside of Western Allies and what I know already the most of it had to come from US & UK. US send lend lease and UK some spare tanks. Other than them, it is hard to come up with other ally that would send shit to them. I'll keep an eye open for that one.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #87

  8. Da Julii Member

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    The thing about the USSR at the time is that they didn't even have the industrial capabilities to arm all of their men so how could they have been expected to supply all those men or have enough oil to keep all of their tanks and cars going. So if the Lend Lease act was as inconsequential as you say then where were they getting the supplies needed to keep the army running from day to day.
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #88

  9. Kali The World's Best Communist

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    China was already completely fucked, and the Commonwealth sans America is even less capable of harming the Japanese. Either way, Japan would retain total control over the oil and natural resources of the Pacific. And I seriously doubt that the Japanese would have been dissuaded from going to war with the Soviets on top of the Allies, because they went to war with America on top of the Allies. Especially in a situation where they already had everything they wanted/needed to fuel their expansion.
    Without having to defend their homeland, they could have sent a lot more. And, in the case of a Soviet invasion of Europe proper, they would actually be able to assist the Germans.
    D3adtrap we've had this argument before. I cited the Journal of Slavic Military History as proof of my argument. Basically, in '41 during the Battle of Moscow, over one-third of the entire Soviet armored force was British made and American shipped. Get rid of Lend-Lease and you get rid of a significant chunk of the Soviet tank force at Moscow (incidentally also the most advanced chunk), which, as the journal illustrates, was the lynchpin of Soviet success. There are also the arguments, all of which were previously cited, made by both pedro and myself regarding Soviet rail and transport, almost all of which was American manufactured and shipped. The nominal value of Lend-Lease may appear small, but the type, timing, and placement of these resources was absolutely critical to the Soviet war effort.
    Wanna guess who was the biggest proponent of D-Day during the entire war? Who made the repeated demands to Allied command? It was Stalin. Of course, as I stated, there are much wider implications to the lack of American intervention in the war than the opening of a western front.
    We're not talking about Spring 1944. We're talking about '39 onwards, without American intervention in the war. It's also worth considering that the war could hardly have been said to been 'won' if the Soviets simply put a stranglehold on the entirety of Europe. In a lot of ways, that's even worse than the conditional surrender of the Germans.
    Kali, Apr 9, 2012
    #89
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  10. Da Julii Member

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    The amount of supplies may not have mattered then as much as the strategic importance of those supplies?
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #90

  11. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    Stalin did move all factories to the east from west and they started producing shit in late fall of 41 and as they've lost all their top equipment in summer in first weeks of invasion this was critical to get them running. All they needed was time, to hold out until production starts to kick in and after that they are as good as victors. Why was Lend lease not critical then, you may ask. It's because Soviet production started to kick in about at the same time Lend lease shipments started to arrive. Both of these did not contribute to Battle of Moscow, which was the most critical battle of the entire war.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #91

  12. Shisno Doesn't know who did this

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    Why are we talking about WW2? I think we can all agree that the US had a limited impact on the first world war. And why is there an option for the Jews? They lost because WW1 led to Hitler which led to WW2 which ended up in the death of over 6 million Jews
    Shisno, Apr 9, 2012
    #92

  13. Da Julii Member

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    A Japanese invasion would have ended all of that. Nationalist China had lost the war against Japan almost every major Chinese city was under Japanese occupation. Australia was panicking because they lacked the manpower and the resources to put up a good defence against a Japanese invasion. If Japan had choosen too and I believe this was a big mistep on their part they could have and should have invaded the USSR before dropping a single bomb on an American warship.
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #93

  14. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    They would still need resources in these parts, which are on other side of the continent mind you.


    That is a fair point. Would this happen important questions would be when, at what scale and how USSR will react to it and that's whole another discussion.


    Are they not still bogged down in NA?

    Thus Hubert's point is dismissed? I beg to differ. Also that alone is not deciding factor for numerous of reasons. One of the more important one would be that Hitler intended to siege the city, which is the critical aspect in my opinion.

    Fine point, but soviets could have done it all by them selves and at that point we come to nominal value, which is not that much.


    He wanted to relief his front, but that does not make D-day necessary for victory.


    US had relatively little intervention before that

    I suppose genocide and a slave state is preferable to iron curtain.

    How so? There's entire Siberia between Japan and Russian factories.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #94

  15. Da Julii Member

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    I dont know if Germany had won the war and you were of German desent and not jewish it may not have been the worst thing ever.
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #95

  16. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    Unless you were black, gay, communist, socialist, handicapped, liberal among other things.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #96

  17. Da Julii Member

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    Agreed.
    Da Julii, Apr 9, 2012
    #97

  18. The Shaw Rawnald Gregory Erickson the Second

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    I swear it wasn't me.
    The Shaw, Apr 9, 2012
    #98

  19. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    I responded to every single of his points. He actually left out more shit in response to me.
    D3adtrap, Apr 9, 2012
    #99

  20. The Shaw Rawnald Gregory Erickson the Second

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    I somehow completely missed your last post in response to kali. My bad.
    The Shaw, Apr 9, 2012
    #100
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