Understanding the Revolutions in the Middle East

But if you persecute a person based on that belief...

That would be bigotry. I don't advocate that, quite the opposite. My point is that a religion is not a race. Religion is a belief no different from a political belief.

Edit: Anyways, sorry for derailing this thread intended to be about the Arab revolutions. I do support the revolutions.

2nd Edit: I just noticed Tito edited a response to me in an earlier post.

The problem I find when I try to criticize religion is that people put religion up on a pedestal where it’s a taboo to criticize it in any way. In my experience on other forums, when I bring up this topic it is assumed that I am a bigot and a racist. I want to make it clear that religion is not a race, nor is a religion the human beings who follow it. What you all need to understand is that a religious belief is no different from a political belief or any other kind of belief that people have swirling around in their head at any given moment. You all have no problem criticizing capitalism or communism or libertarianism. Those are all ideologies, just like religion is an ideology. If I find something wrong with a belief, something detrimental to human wellbeing then of course I‘m going to criticize it, I expect you all to do the same.

Agreed. It just seems to me that sometimes persecution of religion only applies between religions while agnostic/atheists are fine. Could be just me.

AGH! This is the most infuriating thing about your argument. YOUR interpretation is right, or at least should be considered to be the best interpretation. Anyone who doesn't accept that interpretation isn't a TRUE SCOTSMAN.

And seriously? If you want to discuss Islam this much I would expect you to know that one of the primary elements present throughout the entire religion is the concept of jihad, the internal struggle for righteousness. To just say "JIHAD MEANS VIOLENCE, AND VIOLENCE IS BAD DURR HURR" demeans it.

It's not just you. Religious folk are a fickle bunch.

Have you not read my response to this in the other thread? I'm not saying my interpretation is correct. As far as I'm concerned there is no correct interpretation. However if it can be interpreted and interpreted easily without having to completely twist words and jump through hoops then that's all that matters.

First off, you clearly think your interpretation is the best one, as you claim it's incredibly easy to spot. Second, as I stated, the concept of jihad is central to Islam. It's not something that is easily interpreted as meaning "GO KILL INFIDELS" unless you're someone who's already looking for it. Notice that the overwhelming majority of all Muslims throughout all of history have not have interpreted it as you seem to think is so easily done. It's utterly mind-boggling how you can make the argument that because a relative handful of fringe figures picked up on a message of violence that this makes it extremely visible and discredits the other 99.999% of all interpretations.

PURGE THE HEATHENS, amirite...

Because it is incredibly easy to spot. You deny this?

It is easily (very easily) interpreted as meaning "go kill infidels". The point is that it doesn't matter what I think, it's what Muslims believe and it's what they do because of what they believe. Many Muslims today and throughout history have been able to interpret their religion to justify evil. That is enough of a reason to condemn the religion. You can't deny that the world would be better off if people didn't make serious life decisions based on dogmatism. I imagine a world of rational minded people, who could never interpret some old book to mean whatever they wanted it to mean to justify whatever they want.

I dispute that claim. Have you not seen my post in the other thread? (I made an edit)

In context, yes, it's incredibly hard to get that message.

Well if it's a matter of what Muslims believe then it's quite easy to refute all of your claims, as you're going to need to prove that the majority of Muslims interpret the meaning of jihad to primarily be "go kill infidels."

Many proponents of every ideology that has ever existed have been able to interpret their ideology to justify evil. Is that reason enough to condemn ideology?

Is anyone arguing against this? You're the one shouting "religious war" here.

To think that getting rid of organized religion solves all conflict is utterly ludicrous. As long as people can think there will be unlimited justification for conflict. That it won't be fought for Artemis or Ganesha doesn't matter one bit.

No, I've not, I'll go look at it in a bit. But I can very easily refute it right now due to the fact that the majority of Muslims who have ever lived are alive today, and I'm quite confident you're not going to argue that most Muslims today would find your interpretation of jihad as the most obvious one.

I don't think it's wrong it's wrong to criticize religion, I encourage it in fact. But, it's stupid to think that Islam is more violent than Christianity because you cherry-picked a few passages from the Koran, give your violent interpretation of that passage, and then ignore the Bibles easily twisted passages.

i think religion is one of the top reason for so much war in the world i dont get why christiens and muslems fight most of the time if they both belive pretty much in the same person but fight over his name and how he looks its kinda of pointless i mabye jesus or whoever doesent want to come back cause we are fighting over whoever is wathing us like children (lol i got off topic)

Yes, Christians and Muslims both believe in the same God, Allah is just the Arabic word for God, not his name. They also both believe in Jesus but only Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God and that Jesus was a prophet, but not the last one.

Thank you for schooling me on Allah means (im really serious no one really knew what it was where i am now i know im sort of rusty with transltating some words :lol: )

Muslims believe he was only a minor prophet while Christians believe he was the son of God. Religion isnt the top reason for war in the world. There is only one reason we go to war: Stupidity. The crusades werent fought over religion it was a bunch of fat idiotic kings bending peoples beliefs to send young men to war so they can reap the benifits. I hate anyone who cant respect our beliefs and just leave religous people the fuck alone. Condeming someone because they're religous is no different then condemning them because they're colored. You dont have to believe in God or any other religion. But what gives you the right to step back and critize us for it. I respect your beliefs but ask you to keep them to yourselves.

ya i knew i should have placed my words im not a athiest if thats what you think i respect all religiens even though some peopleover hear dont but i just wonder what god orwhoever is up there watching us i wonder what he thinks of all that the human race has doneevery since jesus got hear thats pretty much all (i really need rewordsome of my stuff better srry if you think im a$$ about religion and disrespecting what this guy was trying to say)

You guys have to realize wahhabi (modern fundamentalist islam) hasn't been a mainstream thing until early 20th century when it was used as a political tool.
I don't think we'd be talking about how evil islam is and any of this if the west didn't stir things up in the first place (mostly Britain, France, and more contemporary the US).
I don't think the situation would change much if the roles were reversed and the middle east was christian while the west was islamic.

You keep bringing up jihad, yet I don't think I've once mentioned jihad.

If an ideology is dangerous it should be called out as such.

When did I say getting rid of religion would end all conflict? I don't believe that at all. I would say most human conflicts have nothing to do with religion. However religion is a source of violence.

I await your response.

The Bible can easily be interpreted to justify violence as it has justified and inspired violence in the past. Happy? The difference between Christianity and Islam is that at this point in history secular values have transformed Christianity. Christians are less fundamentalist than they used to be, they ignore much of the Bible and cherry-pick only the bits that they like. A transformation like that has not yet occurred in Islam. Most Muslims are fundamentalists. Even moderate Muslims believe in concepts like Hell because it’s made extremely clear in the Koran that Hell is real and that nonbelievers are going there. In comparison many moderate Christians tend to deny the existence of a literal hell.

Ahmed, what is the punishment for apostasy in your religion? What is the punishment for renouncing your faith in Islam and then criticizing it (as my hero Ayaan Hirsi Ali has done)?

[yt:k4pqi8pm]IyYZulIxNCE[/yt:k4pqi8pm]
[yt:k4pqi8pm]HLmkHMBsls4[/yt:k4pqi8pm]

arranged marraige is a sin in islam and muslims do not opprese women infact women should be treated with respect in our religion.
somailai, saudi araibai are not following islam. they tell their uneducated that what they do is in the quran is right.
the veiw on the quran is mostly is how prophet muhammed(peace be upon him) interpreted it and he (at a time when jews were killed in the west by christains from the bible) let jews live with the muslims equally.
democracy was what inspired the egyptians to revoult.

islams policy with other religions says in the quran i quote
O ye that reject Faith!
Say: O disbelievers!
Say: O unbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship,
I worship not that which ye worship;
I do not serve that which you serve,
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Ahmed, as I’ve said in the other thread about Islam: There are definitely some good bits scattered within the Koran like that, but good passages in the Koran don’t really count for much. Because you don't need religion to tell you that killing people is bad or that giving to charity is good. However you do need religion in order to believe that blowing yourself up or flying planes into a building is good (and that you will be rewarded in the afterlife). The good in the Koran does not negate the bad.

And why have you ignored my questions? What is the punishment for apostasy in your religion? What is the punishment for renouncing your faith in Islam and then criticizing it?

the only punishment that all muslims know is that he would go to hell , but what would happen in hell is up to god.
what you do not understand is that islam does not reward you to blow yourself up as commiting suicide is a sin.
what it actualy is is that if you are a martyr you will be rewarded in heaven.
you can be a martyr by dying defending your house againts theives, if you are murdered, if you die for your family and self sacrifice.
the greatest example of real martyrdom is in the revoulutions in the middle east, i can tell that in the protests we did not blow our self up.

edit: sorry for my bad english