War With Iran - The Wheels Are In Motion

Discussion in 'The Political/Current Events Coffee House' started by D3VIL, Nov 3, 2011.

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  1. Benerfe Well-Known Member

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    War with Iran would be very deadly.

    Imagine if any harm was placed on Mecca.
    Benerfe, Nov 3, 2011
    #21

  2. Kalalification Guest

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    My God I think my brain might implode from the sheer level of ignorance displayed by you lot.

    Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #22

  3. D3VIL Well-Known Member

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    It hasn't got one. Even if they were in the process of making one, they still wouldn't have one. Ergo they are not contravening the NPT. Anyway, missile strikes wouldn't be the only way to resolve such an issue.

    Why don't they deserve credit? They haven't invaded a country in 270 years. The US can barely manage 5. Also the US created the conditions for the Iranian Revolution and instilled a monarchy on a democratic country.
    Israel has nukes but won't admit to it. Israel is test firing missiles and planning to attack another country. Israel is the aggressor once again and has ZERO legitimacy in war against Iran.

    And when hasn't the US been imperialistic?

    Think Palestine, think Iraq. Think of the numerous CIA coups. Think of the Cold War. The US hasn't changed its ways. Only the bogeyman isn't communism, it's Islam.

    Briefly skim the link below. Who seems more dangerous to you? Iran (a country who hasn't invaded another in 270 years) or the US?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
    D3VIL, Nov 3, 2011
    #23

  4. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    Try to recall the last war US was in, where it was not an aggressor... Have to go back a few hundred years.
    D3adtrap, Nov 3, 2011
    #24

  5. Kalalification Guest

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    You were defending Iran by claiming it's okay for them to have nukes because their strategy is deterrence. That's unacceptable.

    Now is a nuclear Iran grounds for war? Not by my reckoning, but it certainly doesn't help their case. And Israel has made it clear (and acted on similar grounds in the past) that no one in the Middle East gets to have nukes. If they act, they act. I'm confident that they will be more than capable of dealing with any consequences by themselves.

    Just because one nation does something 'wrong' doesn't excuse the aberrent behavior of another. Iran is a rogue state in the same vein as the DPRK. They are not credible in any meaning of the term.

    What bearing does that have on the credibility of Iran?

    You are very simply blowing things out of proportion.

    Iran's head of state has repeatedly wished for the annihilation of Israel and made it an active goal of his regime to acquire nuclear weapons.

    Maintaining international stability isn't imperialism, it's rational self-interest by the unipolar entity.

    Every country acts in a way to benefits its interests. That's reality. It doesn't make Iran any less of a threat or any less of a nightmarish theocratic dictatorship.

    That statement is very obviously wrong.

    You are spouting anti-American rhetoric, sure, but are you really going to put yourself on the side of Iran? While we can be an aggressive country, we aren't patently evil or insane; if Iran had our military capabilities I think you'd be wishing for a US hegemony.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #25

  6. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    And you are not biased to America, Kali?
    D3adtrap, Nov 3, 2011
    #26

  7. Kalalification Guest

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    Of course I am. That doesn't invalidate my arguments.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #27

  8. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    "One cannot judge another if they have not walked a mile in their shoes" Try to see situation from other perspectives for once...

    Now my position on some of the issues:

    On credit to Iran: Both are right. Iran is not a friendly country, but US is far from good guys as well

    On Israel aggression: Israel as a legit reason to be hostile to Iran, but politically its a shit fest (To Israeli credit, it's on both sides)

    On US imperialism: Kali, you take this way too lightly and as its not as bad as British empire per say, D3VIL is right

    On CIA coups thingy: US is still a dick, Iran is not much of a threat and it is a nightmarish dictatorship

    On bogeyman: Islam is at least as much of a bogeyman as communism

    On last comment: I agree with "if Iran had our military capabilities I think you'd be wishing for a US hegemony."
    D3adtrap, Nov 3, 2011
    #28
    thelisener likes this.

  9. Kalalification Guest

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    Contrary to popular belief I am usually aware of exactly why my opponents think what they do. Understanding the opposition is the most important key to destroying them.

    More than any previous global hegemon we are 'the good guys.'

    Post-colonial Europe has a tendency to label anything and everything that involves changing or maintaining the balance of power outside of Europe as imperialism. Either the word is used inappropriately because imperialism is understood as it's meant to be used, or it's been watered down enough to mean pretty much anything and everything that a country does to another country.

    Islam has never been an enemy of the United States and has never been recognized as such by the United States.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #29

  10. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    Iran since 1979 has wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. This is their public policy and has been enumerated by nearly every political figure since the revolution. Ahmadinijad goes so far as to deny to Holocost... Iran while not outwardly declaring war on anyone, has fueled insurgencies in both Israel (they've sent over $400 billion dollars to Hezbollah) and Iraq (they provided both fighters, financing, and safe havens to various para-military and terrorist organizations operating there), so stop making them seem like a hapless victim. Neither Israel nor the US has made any posturing towards open warfare against Iran, despite what the guardian (isn't that more of a tabloid paper?) would have you believe, and despite the fact that either country, acting unilaterally, could steamroll Iran in a matter of weeks. They barely mentioned Iran during the Republican debates, and it really isn't on anyone's minds over here, but props to giving in to sensationalist journalism.

    Now the non-admission doctrine of Israel is actually pretty interesting. It strikes a delicate balance in the region and is predicated on deterrence, and there's much debate to the efficacy of the policy. Give me a few minutes to dig up an article I read awhile back on the topic and I'll post up about it, it's a lot more interesting and complex then it lets out.
    pedro3131, Nov 3, 2011
    #30

  11. Kalalification Guest

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    It's true, this isn't anywhere near the top of US news.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #31

  12. D3VIL Well-Known Member

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    Miscommunication on my part, I meant that it isn't the threat it is being claimed to be.
    Israel does not have the right to dictate the policy of its neighbours. Israel has not been provoked. It will be a war of aggression.
    Rogue state? Now who's being hyperbolic?
    There's controversy over that so I do not accept it as evidence.
    Wow. Stability is launching coups and invading nations? 'Stability' is a synonym for 'doing what we want you to do'.
    What is it you want Kalal? Regime change? Do you think the US should go gung-ho and put boots on the ground? Whether it's a nightmarish theocratic dictatorship has no bearing on whether other nations should attack it. If it's militaristic and openly threatening other nations, fine. But it isn't. The US is militaristic. Israel is militaristic. And both of them are openly threatening other nations.
    I am against any imperialism. British, US, any. The US is a militaristic, imperialist nation. Iran isn't. Ergo I support Iran's right not to be attacked by unprovoked countries. Iran's internal policies have nothing to do with other nations. Leave them alone.

    P.S. I am also pro-civiliansnotbeingkilledbymissilesandwar.
    D3VIL, Nov 3, 2011
    #32

  13. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    "Contrary to popular..."
    That is good to know, but I'm still convinced that your biases shadow some stuff from your eyes (Not to say that I blame you)

    "More than..."
    This is true, but it does not make you good guys. We should also take into account that stuff other powers did, was equivalent of stuff you do today if we consider the ways & values of the past. You are better than them all, but would you be in their time, you would be just as "bad"

    "Post-colonial Europe..."
    As i stated in my previous statement, times has changed. Its age of liberalism now. Tho I agree on that word Imperialism might be miss used a bit. "As its meant to understand" No, US does not occupy territories, but it uses military power to achieve certain self interested goals (the creation and/or maintenance of an unequal economic, cultural, and territorial relationships...)

    Also, please spare "Post colonial Europe" from me. Finland was and still is very isolated nation from everyday Europe. We never had colonies nor slavery. You might be onto something in this when talking about majority of Europe, but I cannot confirm it for I have no idea about this.

    "Islam has never..."
    I did not mean it in that way...
    D3adtrap, Nov 3, 2011
    #33

  14. Kalalification Guest

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    Frankly I'm bored with that argument; I tried to predict what your response would be and got an almost verbatim match on the bottom section and apart from your questioning Iran as a rogue state I managed to accurately predict every single argument you made. It's just too cliched, too much of a dead horse, and far too uninteresting.

    In any case, since Iran is very clearly in the wrong and you aren't even defending them so much as hating on the US I'll just respond to the interesting section of your post.

    I wrote a paper on this topic, where I advocated regime change via clandestine operations (AKA, status quo). This was before the 'Arab Spring' but a while after the election fiasco in Iran, so it's only kind of dated.
    Kalalification, Nov 3, 2011
    #34

  15. pedro3131 Running the Show While the Big Guy's Gone

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#Clarifying_comments

    I was going to start citing articles, but after 10 separate articles of him espousing antisemitism, and anti-Israeli sentiments I just got tired...

    He has backed off a bit from his desire to wipe them off the face of the earth (which by the way was one of Khomeni's rallying cries during the 79 revolution) but he still regards them and everything they do as illegitimate. He basically changed his stance to "everything they do is bs, and every Israeli death is a godsend" and continues to funnel money into terrorist organizations regardless of how many innocent children and civilians his rocket attack and suicide bombers affect.
    pedro3131, Nov 3, 2011
    #35

  16. D3VIL Well-Known Member

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    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/11/02/israel-test-fires-missile-that-can-hit-iran-1866648425/
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/us-iran-nuclear-idUSTRE7A25WG20111103
    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/11/2011113125630400402.html
    Sensationalist journalism wasn't it Pedro.
    D3VIL, Nov 3, 2011
    #36

  17. pottman Well-Known Member

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    Hate America, that's way to go these days. :rolleyes:
    pottman, Nov 3, 2011
    #37

  18. D3adtrap www.twitter.com/d3adtrap | Mr. Choc: Coco Fruits

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    I agree

    Yes it has (not to say that they are not provoking others...)

    I would agree with Kali on this one, but keep in mind who is dictating who gets on the black list. (Many other nations belong in it as well)

    Kali is right to the extend that US is doing that, but is very aggressive in doing that, witch is counter productive and it is creaking just as much unstability (bit over the top, but not that much)

    I agree with you, but if there is genocide or revolution (etc.) in witch opposition calls for international help (like Libya) I give a green light to go in.

    Where as I think much of it is deserved, there are much more states that deserve peoples hate so much more. And it is sad.
    D3adtrap, Nov 3, 2011
    #38

  19. battleearl Well-Known Member

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    Without nukes North Korean is not much of threat...
    battleearl, Nov 3, 2011
    #39

  20. D3VIL Well-Known Member

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    Arguing against war often isn't interesting. That's why you don't get many non-militaristic FPS games. This comment piece talks about the Arab Spring in context with this issue.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/03/attack-iran-us-nuclear

    The question isn't whether Iran is right or not, it is whether it is right to ATTACK them (good strawman). Would you lay down your life for it? And for the record Netanyahu has been saying that Iran is close to getting nuclear weapons for years. Maybe he's right this time. Who knows.

    And I don't particularly care about US sanctions. They can sanction all they want. What I do care about is attacking another nation in a war of aggression. It is Iraq all over again.

    So a country calls you names and you use missiles on it? I think you know that the reaction wouldn't be proportionate (oops Gaza reference).

    To clarify: I DO NOT LIKE IRAN. I JUST DON'T THINK THEY DESERVE TO BE ATTACKED BY AGGRESSIVE, MILITARISTIC NATIONS.
    D3VIL, Nov 3, 2011
    #40
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